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Posted by D-Rock on 08/14/06 (Shite)
Seymour Hersh thinks so.
(Also on Democracy Now!.
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No Glen Lambert & Fat Mike did
Probably did. Especially if they had something to gain off it.
George Bush and Co. that is haha.
Alex Jones is OK, but he’s a bit much.
nice link. thanks.
does it matter? the fact is that the people of israel, U.S., canada, and everyother country with “interests” in this conflict did not stop those in power, yet again.
and looking at this war under a broader frame-work of capitalist aquisition of resources, of course it was planned. it’s been being planned since at least 1948.
Acutally, I don’t think Israel itself has much in the way to offer the global economy in terms of natural resources outside of a well-educated populace. True it is adjacent to the heart of the worlds oil reserves, but even then, i’m not sure how much of a stragegic foothold it offers to countries like the U.S., since they seem to have no problems making friends and allies with the arab killer regimes. i think this one has to do with religion all the way. The Israeli lobby (aipac) stiffled any debate in washington over our uncritical support of israel. The evangelical christians are also in league with aipac because according to revelation the jews need to be in palestine for the rapture to take place or some crazy shit. AIPAC definitely bribes our venal politicians but religion definitely plays an important role.
the u.s. foreign policy is obviously almost exclusively guided by economic interests for sure, but i think official position on israel is the exception. i would even go so far as to say it goes against u.s. interests from a purely economic standpoint with its potential to disrupt oil supplies.
cuz as far as oil supplies go, who needs Israel when you have the Saudi royal family on your side?
I think Israel is a foot hold for the region.
I’m not terribly surprised that they had this planned out at least to some extent. Good to read about this bullfuck though. Thnx for posting this.
a sort of sphere of influence i mean.
well, the US is also the major supplier of israeli miltary forces. i’d wager that if it were’nt for this support, israel could not function as it does today. i think gerty said a good word to describe it: foothold.
and religion does play a part- but it’s in deceiving the people of the real pre-text for this attack: more power. this relationship could be construed as merely passing the buck. American policy makers have somebody else to do the dirty work.
and yes- the lobbyists probably have a role to play, but public protests are just ignored. you can’t bow to one group while pretending to not here another- thats not how a democratic state works.
that israel has such meager value economically, the only reason i can fathom that would compel foreigners to colonize the area is religious dogma. i mean, lets face it, there’s alot more prosperous tracts of land in the world that probably woudn’t have required displacing as many people as in palestine (although displacing anyone is fucked, don’t get me wrong). plus, the u.s. has always had a foothold in the region in places like saudi arabia and kuwait. Everywhere that i can think of that europeans colonized were rich in resources to exploit. i think in the overall history of colonization, the zionists seem to be an anomoly in that they think that god has mandated palestine for them. I think the creation of israel has has much more in common w/ the crusades than mercantile colonialism.
off topic, but a friend just sent me this
of course the christians used their god to justify their conquests … but they seemed to settle only in economically viable areas.
there was a jewish population in the area before israel existed. a much more peaceful population, it seems.
since israel theres only been blood. sorry. im at work too, have to go!
of course the christians used their god to justify their conquests … but they seemed to settle only in economically viable areas.
i agree with you that these current conflicts in the middle east do not seem to be purely driven by the short term economic interest in oil, but i’m not sure religion is playing the fundamental role you suggest. From a U.S. perspective, that is.
I would suggest that long-term U.S. interests in maintaining/strengthening Israel has more to do with geography than economics or religious dogma.
It’s interesting to note that if you draw a line from the Israel-Lebanon border to China, the states you pass through are Syria, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. The U.S are already occupying two of these countries, and have threatened the other two.
I’m not suggesting the U.S have any immediate plans against China, but control in the middle east will be of great strategic value should China fulfill the Western Worlds worst nightmare.
And Israel would no doubt be a more reliable and closer ally than the other ‘U.S. friendly’ states in the region if/when that time comes.
After all, even the worst imperialist, capitalist, neocon scum knows self-preservation is more important than oil
hi dumdidee sorry bout the fly in the ointment schtick i’m just not totally convinced that economics are taking a back seat in this one. I think everyone EVER can agree that the US wants friendly allies in the region for security reasons and of course most importantly economic reasons. Thing is they are trying to install friendly allies ala regime change(s?). i think its pretty clear they are trying to shape the region. Of course there are ‘religious’ reasons for Israel to want to stay but i think there are economic reasons for the US to want Israel to stay on top.
here’s “an oldie but a goodie”
oh good comment kate i didnt know it was even there haha
self evident that Israel’s military has different interests than those of other allies in the region. Ones that are arguably closer to those of the US in the grand scheme of things. And the line of countries i dont know about it necessarily threatening China other than by a potential sphere of influence – but I see it more to be about the pipeline.
wouldnt oil and more resources assure self preservation though? i mean, one of the major reasons the MI complex exists in the way it does today is due to western (especially US) consumption of oil. the more resoures consumed, the more profit, the more power!
of course maintaining this relationship may cost the empire to fall, but i think the most important thing to those in power is conquest. ultimate conquest, with no one left to challange until we start terraforming mars.
kings will be kings, after all. but no king or empire can withstand time.
am i making sense?
a step in the right direction for sure:
“The UN children’s fund, UNICEF, estimates that some 1,183 people died in Lebanon, mostly civilians and about a third of them children.”
That’s about 600 children killed in a matter of weeks…Israeli officials and policy makers should also be charged with genocide…
Wow. Did I write that? How embarassing…
Dumdiddee said that he thinks the U.S./Irael relationship goes against U.S. interests in terms of oil. I guess i was trying to point out that oil is not the only reason for ‘stabalizing/democratizing’(ha!) the region. It’s also about swiftly cutting down regimes that have the potential to threaten U.S. imperialism, including- but not restricted to- oil
I guess i took it a little far bringing china into the equation.
but I was reading this shit:
..and it makes you wonder what those fuckers are really up to. Something more far-sighted that monopolizing the worlds oil reserves, it would seem.
oh snap Kate nice link thats out and out fucked. My naive party-line-totting go-nowhere/serve nothing speculation would be that these bases could be used in as a plan “Z” if something really uber fucked up happens like an intergalactic invasion from Uranus(i suppose just gallactic if its Uranus) and perhaps even for housing in case of a natural disaster(which is still probably a result of man’s redONKulous footprint) – but i doubt they’d be used for that. What a brilliant strategy to do things so fucked up that they are literally unbelievable? Its almost more believable than tourists from Uranus. I just wanted to squeeze in Uranus a few more times.
CHeck out the bad ass Immortal Technique video tearing the Bush Administration a new one!!!
Climate crisis? Terrorism? we’ll have our people fix that as we broaden the horizons of both stupid and crazy.
according to kate’s link, “Democratic” states all of some sort of “Totalitarian Plan B”…fucking scary…even though the top of the page it says “the voice of the right.”
yeah great link kate…for all those canucks who think they’re safe:
Our Canadian friends tell us that virtually all Canadian military bases, especially those north of the 50th Parallel, are all set up with concentration camps. Not even half of these can be listed, but here are a few sites with the massive land space to handle any population:
Suffield CFB – just north of Medicine Hat, less than 60 miles from the USA.
Primrose Lake Air Range – 70 miles northeast of Edmonton.
Wainwright CFB – halfway between Medicine Hat and Primrose Lake.
Ft. Nelson – Northernmost point on the BC Railway line.
Ft. McPherson – Very cold territory ~ NW Territories. Ft. Providence – Located on Great Slave Lake. Halifax – Nova Scotia. Dept. of National Defense reserve…. And others.
yeah i regret my posts on this thread cuz they don’t make much sense and i basically butchered my own argument (that the religion is the ultimate source of the conflict as opposed to economics). I still stand by it, but it woudld take way to long to explain it accurattely cuz i would hafta trace it back to the 2000 years of savage persecution of jews by christians where the origins of this tragedy began. but i have no time.
To anyone who read my posts sorry for wasting your time!
haha no worries dumdidee!
I totally appreciate your posts! they arent a waste of time. I think that historically speaking it totally would point to religion and i think that’s a completely valid argument and I’m sure its a factor. The crusades of course are utterly crushing to read about and color centuries of conflict in the region. Your comments are the type that i’d hope to find in here. I hope you write out some that longer post with specifics cuz if we just float along the surface of topics whats the point? we all know these topics exist why not talk about em in length? heres a good a place as any right?…
In other news local Tiger Beat heart throb todd the quad spotted in Graham and Kennedy Shoppers drug mart. Sources say he was quoted as saying “hi” as his gaggle of welcome place friends were tagging along like little ducklings as though they were tugged by an invisible rope just hours before Critical Mass.
and now we’ve come full circle. see thats how you waste peoples time dumdidee!
here’s an article from toilet paper cum magazine Macleans magazine relating to religious war and people you might not expect wearing the figurative sandwich-board sign forcasting judgement day. of course i’m gonna out source this one again…
oh and for those who missed “why we fight” it was on cbc yesterday i meant to post on here…guess you missed it again.
hope i’m not over posting on here.
[...] Read the rest of this post [...]
don’t worry guys im the biggest douche in this here forum…
but i think that the article is interestin in that it mentions iran. i keep hearing plans for iran pop up in the media, and maybe they’re just lubing us up for their next big strike, one which could lead to a disastrous war. not that the “war on terrorism” isnt a disastrous war..
and again…Israel wouldn’t be the behemoth it is toady without outside support…mostly from the US and other western powers…cant help but feel that there is a reason for this. a very strategic, geo-political reason.
it’s funny you’ll never hear this shit on cnn. the media plays a huge role in this conflict. is spreading lies to millions a war crime? it should be.
i just heard conan fuckin o’shitbrian refer to al’jazeera as an anti-semetic institution in a joke meant to offend fellow douche-bloody-fart mel gibson. if anything, the same could be said about cnn. cnn is anti-everyone else in the world. anti- arab, anti-muslim. it’s just a music box for the elite. and people watch and think they’re getting a global perspective…..it’s a rainy sunday.
Chomsky was in the Indepedent’s “Q&A” thing today – unsurprisingly, a lot of the focus was on this business. Its quite interesting.
While Israel is in a nice little location for a US influence, I think we have to remember the US’s main industry: weapons manufacturing. And guess who sells weapons to Israel? The good ole US of A. Every time Israel fight any sort of war or batte, our friends at GE, Boeing, etc. are cashing in and that means thier lobbyists are happy as well as Bush’s buddies. It’s a scary combination of globalism and the military/industrial complex. Everytime the Israel, or any other customer of US weapons, gets in a war, it means more money for the US.
And after looking back on my post, I’ve decided I can’t spell.
is that rock and roll juggernaut?
No, more like “I’m the Juggernaut, bitch.” That you-tube X-men thingy. I think it’s hilarious. Maybe it’s just because I wish I was black. Oh, well. But yeah, “you tube Juggernaut,” not rock and roll juggernaut.
just a speculative fiction.
no cause for alarm.
I think the greatest question of them all is , how did Israel , who ‘expresses regret’ at civilian casulty , who has the most advanced weapons and intelligence , kill more civilians , ratio , than Hezbollah , who intentionally attacked civilans.
I try to hear out both sides , and scrutinize both equally but I’ve never liked Israel , especially because of the paternalistic attitude it’s adapted when dealing with their opponents .
But hey, the wrong apporach may actually achive greater aims , than simply eliminating their opponents.
Wouldn’t these people achive more by debating with their opponents , who are so convinced that Israel shouldn’t exsist , than using the same words , which aggrivates everyones.
In all honesty , the religion of Islam is the worst , when trying to assosiate to a cause , and it has created the hostile conditions to ….
Israel , a country which doesn’t give a shit for the u.n (which i slightly respect them for , vs the palastinians , which are weaker and get no respect, creates the perfect enviroment for expansion.
The only one way that this trickery can continue , if both sides have some shit smeared on their cause.
it all comes down to mans greed.. who has the power and connections to fuck up yet another country use their resources and become powerful and live in absolute bliss.. yippeee
in response to juggernaught – although US military aid/exports are a huge source of their power, I don’t think they produce as a way to achieve the end product (profit) but that they have such large military expenditures so that they can maintain power over most of the world. So to say the US are bum-buddies w/ Israel b/c Israel imports such a vast quantity of weapons doesn’t really make sense (especially since they recieve so much from US”AID”). If that were true then the US would be willing to sell arms to anyone in the market (and although they do sell a lot “under the table” I’m quite certain, they undoubedly have strict controls on making sure those pesky left-wingers are mainly leftout). Israel itself has it’s own fairly substantial arms production sector and look who they sell to: latin America (expecially against the sandanistas) in the 80′s and now Burma, one of the leaders in human rights abuses. Reading through all these (very well written) posts, I can’t help but see that pretty much everyone is correct to a point…although the question posed as a starting thread to this blog seems to have been ignored by all.
Also, I think if each person asked themselves if they truly believe in the rhetoric of the religious fanatics in positins of power in the US when they say they are supporting Israel for religious/humanitarian reasons. Does Bush really believe he is helping to bring “democracy” to other people, do many in power actually believe the “liberated” peoples of these countries, like lebanon, will come out and lay roses at the armies’ feet after a victory? The scary thing is that I think a lot of these men do believe it to a point. Never underestimatethe power of double-think.
anyways, i hope that made sense and the grammer is not too horrific, forgive me for its 3 am and rather cold out…
oh yeah, and stephan, thanks for the you-tube link. rockin’.
ugh I just read my post and realized I hadn’t really tied the two mini-paragraphs together. I wanted to say that the US can’t support Israel for purely economic reasons, as then they wouldn’t give a flying-fuck to whom the major dealers sold to nor would they care if Israel sold arms to say, Bolivia under Morales, or to Cuba. Also, I really do believe the present administration is not only talking as though they are christian fundamentalists, but that they ACTUALLY ARE, or at least many of them are or believe a substantial bit of the rhetoric they throw at the masses to keep their eyes on anything but their own lives/governance. Many an act of double-think undoubtedly occurs in the administration. When it is in their economic best interest to deal w/ perceived enemies (such as saudi arabia, iraq, etc), they don’t hesitate, while still believing themselves Christian soldiers. I think the US became involved in Israel more for religious reasons (way before balfour) and made it so that it became economically viable and the issues of having a readily available base for military operations against any arab country was really just a plumb.
Again, sorry to ramble and repeat myself as it is now 430 am I’ll meander to my warm bed and as a quick side note recommend Dario fo’s “accidental death of an anarchist” I just read it between these crappy repetitive posts and it had me grinning moronically.
The funny thing about christian fundementalists and jewish zionists united in support of israel is that each party is in it for different, ultimately selfish ambitions. For some crazy reason Christians think the jews need to be in palestine for the rapture to occur despite the fact that these same jews will not be beamed up into heaven as they reject christ. The Jews have their own arrogant beliefs too in that they believe they have a god-given right to settle in palestine even at the expense of non-jews. As an aethist looking at this weird holy coalition, i can’t help thinking that after christians and jews coalese at a pro-israel rally each group goes home thinking of the other group as a bunch of suckers. Like in the simpsons when bart and homer each think they conned each other and walk away saying “sucker”.
I hope that made sense. i wish i had a properly functioning brain.
Also … ol’ Bits pretty much said what i was trying to say earlier, even though you wouldn’t be able to tell by reading my string of incoherent posts.
yeah, I’m also noticing more and more this judeo-fetishism occuring in both the right-wing fundamentalist side and also on the left-wing radical side. I saw two hebrew tattoos at a party a few weeks ago (only one actually being on a jewish person)and have caught many bits of conversations talking about who is jewish (and how cool it is) and defining heritage more and more as the 1/8th Jewish…has anyone else found this? I’m not saying there is anything wrong with this per se, and a lot of it may come from the fact that som many highly regarded intellectuals have been Jewish and are so well respected (eg Goldman, chomsky, zinn, many many others), I just hope it is not coming from the media propaganda that Israel is this great savior for humanity and some sort of peaceful jewel in a chaotic arab sea….
I haven’t noticed anyone boasting or over-emphasizing tenous claims of jewish heritage, at least it hasn’t become the hip thing in my neck of the woods … yet anyway. But I could see how mass-media lionzing israel could have that effect. I have, however, found this to be the case with many people who claim native american descent. Seems like everyone wants a cherokee indian in their ancestry, but its totally superficial as 99.9% do fuck all for the few remaining native communities.
But I must say i that I do have some admiration for the Jewish community and find them in general to be quite fascinating. Look at how this small group of people have persevered through all the discrimination, ghettos, pogroms, etc. And look at how much this small group have contributed to the intellectual advance of humanity! Oh, and let’s not forget how they have maintained a sense of humor through all the madness (most of my fav comidians are jewish).
Now i’m not at all trying to take away from the historical plights of any other persecuted people, but the hatred of anti-semitism has been so extraordinrily intense and the perscution extradinarily savage. Jews have been blamed for everything under the sun: crop failures, blood libels, syphilus, capitalism, communism, prostitution. Whereas other peoples were thought by christian/europeans to be inferior creatures and treated like cattle and killed whenever they got in the way, jews have been identified as actual devils. Anybody read about that massacre in 1946(?) of Jewish holocaust survivors in Poland?? After all the horror and carnage of WWII you would think that people would just want to chill out for a while .. “oh no! a few jews survived the gas chambers!”
What the FUCK?
I forgot my point now.. oh wait, it’s just that if i was jewish I have a feeling that in my younger years i would have been like “yeah i’m jewish, and proud of it, you gotta fuckin problem with that!?” Emotion would trump reason. I probably would have wanted to go on a jihad against Germans. So my point is that I understand why some jews feel the way they do … at least from an emotional standpoint. Not that that gives them an license to treat ANYONE else like shit, mind you.
I just want to add that i hope no one thinks what i wrote is an apologia for nationalism or pathological ethnic pride, cos that shit is just plain dumb. I was just thinking out loud, i guess. What we need is more all-embracing humanism on the planet, which I think we all agree on.
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