I wasn’t being flippant. I was merely pointing out that misogyny extends well beyond the “white” world. Yet you and Tom felt the need to specify “white” males. It sounds like a typical knee-jerk cliche from some snooty middle-class college kid, with no critical thinking behind it.

Being able to remain oblivious to other people’s oppression is PART of your privilege.

I’m oblivious, eh? How’d you know??

So tell me, does “white male privelage” entail working 50+ hours a week to make ends meet and being w/o health care coverage? Not having any affirmative action benefits available despite a humble backgroud?

When I got my head bashed in by police officers WHILE HANDCUFFED was that “white privelage”?

So, does my vita fit your academic notion of “white privelage” that i must surely benefit from? If so, i’d gladly take a pass on it.

By the way Caitlin, i hope you enjoyed your vacation. I could really use one myself, as i haven’t been on one for years.

your passing of the buck to african-american rappers/gangsters as the most abusive towards women just proves my point that your trying to deny, that currently, this very fucking day, white men contribute huge amounts to patriarchy.

Actually, dear Thomas (and Caitlin for that matter) if you look deep inside you’ll realize that YOU”RE being racist by holding “white” men to a higher standard.

For fucks sake, gangster rap is to women as skrewdriver is to non-whites. Both fucking celebrate the dehumanization of and violence towards certain segments of the population.

Subconsciously you must think that blacks can’t help their behavior. Or are you scared to call them on their shit?

In contrast to many here, i have many REAL friends of African descent, not just people i volunteer to help. So i interact just as comfortably w/ them as people from other communities. Actually, maybe even more comfortably with them than middle class know-it-alls, like yourselves. But I do think we’re all equals and capable of the same standards. believe that’s the attitude we all need to have if we are to ever truly transcend all forms of racism.

And if you think about it, your lack of criticism towards the way certain women act by taking advantage of sexism in order derive social power and privelage, and thereby reinforcing sexism, shows that you don’t hold women to the same standards as men.

Think about it.

Now, since you’ve taken it upon yourselves to generalize me, it’s only fair i generalize you.

You both are a lot like Christians, with your finger pointing, acting like you have moral authority, and substituting the “white male” for Satan. You also strike me as very self-satisfied.

Instead of the bible, you turn to books by intellectuals, ensconced in academia, leading quite comfortable and priveleged lives, who have little, if anything, in common with the oppressed peoples they claim to champion.

I bet you’re only willing to help other people so long as you never have to clean public toilets or dig ditches for a living. And i’m talking about going beyond the occasional token displays..

Long live the losers, nobodies and street urchins of all colors and genders! Fuck the arrogant elitists speaking at us from both the right and the left!!!

now
to tom: I’ve actually taken some offence to your last posts. I think the whole skin color and it’s relation to degrees of sexism debate is silly. Men of all ethnic backgounds have a vested interest in gaining and maintaining power, and one of the ways they do this is though sexism and abuse against women. Of course I don’t think that includes every single male, but I do think it is an overall interest for that gender (just as it is in the interest of a select group to mainatin economic power over workers. crass wrote “we’re all just niggers to the rulers of this land,” but it is just as true if you substitute “niggers” for “bitches”).
Anyways, my offense is at your contradictory insistences that both color/ethnicity does not matter in regards to misogyny while also emphasizing Lepine as white and middle class. I have an Algerian Muslim friend who, although having similar skin tones to many north americans, would be offended if you insisted on him being “white.” What is “white”? The coverage of the 1989 massacre is one of the few instances where I can really commend corporate media for focusing on the important facts of a news story, i.e. hatred and violence against womyn. It’s interesting to think how the media would have reported this tragedy had it transpired after the fall of the twin towers - undoubtedly as a muslim fanatic whose views of womyn have no bearing on our own civilized society. (Lepine’s first name was Gamil Gharbi and was a first generation canadian whose family was from Algeria.)
So lets leave skin colors out of it - its arbitrary enough defining who is white without putting “degree of sexism” as a characteristic.

If you don’t believe sexism still exists in our community, here’s an anecdote from a few days ago: I went to a large health clinic on broadway, which is really the only one in the area available to most people (esp. as it’s open late and on weekends. important as most in this area must have a few jobs to survive) for some antibiotics and found out that there was only one doctor (of about 20-30) who was accepting patients as a family doctor (the alternative to not having a family doctor is long wait times at a walk-in clinic to get a doctor who doesn’t know your history and only really wants to finish with you to get to the next patient). In order to become this doctors’ patient you have to sign a paper acknowledging that for “moral” reasons he will not issue most drugs (as in assuming that those in the area are all drug addicts) including benign (as in non-recreational) things like some antibiotics, that he will not give any information or referrals for abortion and will not give any information or prescriptions for birth control. There were more points but I didn’t read past number three before I looked at the nurse incredulously and made a comment about how fucked up it was (not my most eloquent comment, surely). A day or two later the free press ran a (syndicated, I believe) story on national erosion of female control over their bodies legally and in the health system, such as a loss of hospitals that perform abortions (a journalist inquiring to a ” western prairie hospital” about abortion services was actually told she was a sick and terrible person for considering it and was basically going to burn in sulfur baths. I can’t imagine what it is like to be pregnant and not have any options: to not have access to the few urban clinics which can help. I think that affects us all in a lot of ways.

your passing of the buck to african-american rappers/gangsters as the most abusive towards women just proves my point that your trying to deny, that currently, this very fucking day, white men contribute huge amounts to patriarchy. i mean, this is a fucking post regarding a very dark and disturbing subject, the murder of 14 women, by a white middle class male who had an agenda against femminism. puhhlease dude. if you consider yourself not to be a racist, then what makes you believe that white men dont contribute to sexism as much as african american men do?

in fact it was you who singled out white men dude, not i, not caitlin, it was you who singled out white men as having made progress in terms of our relations to women.

if by “social progress has been made” you mean that women in our communities have got it a little easier than they did maybe 50 years ago, you might be right about the workplace. but the fact is, in our homes, in our streets, our schools, our buisnesses, hell, id say 99% of our social institutions, violence against women is still here, its still because theyre women, and it still destroys lives every minute of every day.

honestly dude, i cant argue. i dont know fucking how. the only thing i can say is that ive attuned my ears to hear the facts, the stories of abuses made towards women, and it screams at me. its still here, in us, and unless we actively fight against these forces of hatred that were imbued into nearly every single living person on this earth, it will continue to be here, and it will continue to destroy women’s lives.

read the natashas dude, from g7s store, itll break your fucking heart, i promise. cause its scaring the shit out of me.

This post was about misogyny. It was both of you who felt the need to single out–and you DID single out–men of the “white race.” You did this despite the face that the most blatant, pathological, and vicious form of misogyny in the West at this time can be found in rap music, which is largely the product of the African American community.

“Bitches ain’t shit but hoes and tricks.”

In Saudi Arabia a women was nearly flogged and jailed for being on the receiving end of a brutal gang rape. I understand that she did receive a pardon from the Saudi king, who decided on “lenience” on account of international outrage–largely from the West.

but i challenge you to be honest about your relations with women in your life, and i challenge you to realize that by being a white man you are in a very strong position to end violence against women commited by white men.

Dude, i have gave an honest assessment of my relations with women, I one of the few things i’m proud of in my life is my track record in that arena. In my adult life i have always treated women with the dignity and respect that they deserve as equal human beings. Why is that so hard to believe? You seem to be implying that just because i’m a male–and a “white” male to boot!–that i at the very least engage in some sort of subtle, subconsious oppression towards women. Well, I reject this implication. And i don’t hesitate to rip into any asshole who makes sexist remarks.

And please indulge me with one final observation. Many people who agitate for womens liberation view the objectification of women in TV and commericials as a major contributor to misogyny. I agree wholeheartedly. But again here only men get the blame.

Is it not time to also start denouncing the women–models and actresses, producers, directors, and what not–who participate in these demeaning media portrayals?

I don’t see the women particpating in this as “victims”. They’re fucking collaborators, using their beauty to gain social power at the expense of their more homely sisters. They should be held just as accountable as men for their deeds. In the spirit of equality, if men should know better than to objectify women, goddamnit so should women.

I feigntly recall pointing out on this blog a few months ago that Paris Hilton was a piece of shit–which she is, plain and simple. I also recall someone defending her on the grounds that she was another victim of society. Nonsense I say.

So my criticism of your responses, Tom and Caitlin, is mainly that they are series of simplistic cliches that may have been valid in another era, but now sound increasingly out-of-date in light of much social progress that has been made in recent years. Again i’ll remind you that the next president of the U.S. will very likely be a black man or a woman. Even if i don’t agree with their politics, I think it will mark a huge step forward for American society.

I’m against racism of any kiind, which means that i don’t think white men are inherently better OR worse than any other men. So i’ll just close by saying that when you single out white men as a kind of driving force behind misogyny, you sound very sophmoric.

The fact that you can flippantly refer to white privilege and misogyny as if they were things of the past - fifty years ago? again I say come off it! - are clear indicators of that very privilege. Being able to remain oblivious to other people’s oppression is PART of your privilege.

Of course class is relevant, but that just doesn’t change some things. Ever been pulled over for the well known offense of “driving while black”? Again, I’ll ask: have you got at least a 1-4 chance of being raped in your life? I am in no way trying to avoid acknowledging that normal working white guys have it rough too, but do you really feel the need to talk victim in a post about misogyny? Can’t you just accept that on top of that class prejudice, women and POC have oppressions of their own?

Everything you’ve said is classic defense or avoidance. Ugh. I SWORE i wasn’t going to get in to this again, and I’m not, I’m really not. Links.. links will do the work for me and I can have my coffee.. sweet links.

Start here - “White Privilege: Unpacking The Invisible Knapsack”
http://64.233.183.10...k&cd=1&gl=uk
There’s a shit load of resources at whiteprivilege.com
A dude decided to make up his own “male privilege” version of Peggy MacIntosh’s “white privilege” checklist: http://colours.mahos...g/maleprivilege.html
And this is hilarious: http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
You could also check out the memories section of this interesting community:
http://www.livejourn...?user=debunkingwhite

I hope you’ll read some of them, but if you don’t, please don’t expect me to explain the concepts therein because you’d rather have an argument than study. Life is too short.

With that, I am - as Cher from Clueless said - outie.

save me your “all whites arent oppressive” routine, the fact of the matter is the majority of this world is based on power structures owned by men. not only white men of course, no, no one has said that it’s only white men that cause destruction in this world. it’s only you who’s started defending white men for some strange reason.

maybe this thread is more directed towards white mens contributions to the destruction of women. marc lepine was a white man, he lived in a middle class area of the same city i call home. i for one am not singling out white men when i talk about sexism, most certainly not.

“we are all too much alike”. i for one fucking hope not dude! because that would be LAME. i feel that maybe you feel like some of the things said in this thread were directed to you…maybe you feel that way because you’re a white male…but no ones targeting you dude, you’re not under attack. but i challenge you to be honest about your relations with women in your life, and i challenge you to realize that by being a white man you are in a very strong position to end violence against women commited by white men. and so am i. and i think we’d all be surprised to find the same things out from the “ordinary working class stiffs” that are most of the white men we know.

because its perpetrated and perpetuated by people we know, brothers, fathers, sons, friends. i’m not talking about some alien invasion from the andromeda galaxy here, im talking about everyday stinky men. like you and me.

Caitlin, when you speak of “white privelage” it doesn’t even make sense from a historical perspective for many who you would now call “white”. My mom grew up farming the potato fields in utter poverty. Her family had been dwelling in the bogs since time immemorial. For Xmas she would jump for joy if she received an orange as a gift. She then busted her ass through nursing school in England, where she indeed faced much discrimination and open hostility from the Anglisch. So how does/did she enjoy white privelage? Irish weren’t even considered “white” up until recently.

Are you aware of the millions of American whites currently residing in trailor parks? Do they benefit from white privelage?

Basically, your critique of white society seems out of date. If in the workplace here in America, a woman is sexually harassed, i.e. treated like a biological fuck machine, she could practically destroy the company through civil lawsuits and become a rich, rich woman, and the offender(s) would be out of a job. I think that’s good. There are also laws against the discrimination of minorities. That’s good too.

I just don’t see the point in discussing matters related to race and gender as if we were living in the 1950s. We’ve got a ways to go, but remember many, many whites also get the shaft in today’s society.

If my use of the phrase “rich white male” prompted this defensive knicker-bunching (see what i did there?) then you have - predictably, when one picks a word to get offended about and ignores the context - either entirely missed or deliberately ignored my point. Unfortunately for the world of internet drama, I’m on holiday and have absolutely no intention of getting drawn into an argument which just isn’t so much fun the 500millionth time with no “white/male privilege” drinking game present.

Your reaction - from “woman president” to “lone pyscho” to “reverse racism” - is typically defensive and pretty hollow. Its not my job to point out to you how the examples cited by Derek are related to misogyny, nor is it my burden to pick apart said hyperbolic, knee-jerk response (gas chambers? come off it). If it was indeed my post that upset you so, I invite you to re-read it. Otherwise, perhaps you should familiarise yourself more with the concepts of white privilege and patriarchy, and you might find this thread less hard to swallow.

I apologise if I’m coming off as patronising or snappy, but it really irks me when people basically ignore me and instead put words in my mouth. That being said, I have gifts to wrap, soy nog to be totally mystified by, and boozihol to drink, so the words ain’t a-comin’ no more - feel free to continue this discussion alone.

From what i gather Western Europe has been very progressive in recent decades in regards to women. The playing field is becoming more level for women, and that’s good.

Of course there is a ways to go, but i’m not sure that marking the anniversary of a psychopath who went on a killing spree is a fair portrayal of the status of women in the Western world. Until we find a cure for insanity, i’m afraid this probably won’t be the last time women fall victim to deranged men.

But why the fuck would people single out white men on this thread? That’s one of the problems with the far Left IMO. Every problem in the world is blamed on the white man. Seriously, if you take some of the writings and speeches of that self-hate filled wacko Ward Churchill and substitue either Jews, blacks, asians, ect. where he refers to whites, you would think he was a fuckin neo-nazi.

The truth that most John Q. Whiteguys i know are just working stiffs who aren’t in fact oppressing anybody, and it angers me when people broadbrush them as racists or misogynists, which is actually racist itself if you follow me.

Point out the motherfuckers who are actually fucking shit up instead of just referring to them by race.

We rightly don’t blame “the Jews” for the Israeli-centric foreign policy that has wreaked so much havoc in the mid-east. We blame the zionist-extremist lobby who bear responsiblity so as to avoid defaming an entire race or ethnicity.

Does anyone think that if we marched all white males into gas chambers that the world would become a better place?

I highly doubt it. We are all too much alike.