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• Comment by ridebikesmore! on January 21st, 2006 at 2:41 pm:

  what the fuck?!? that is ridiculous. maybe one of the dumbest things i’ve heard in a while. how do they intend on turning downtown winnipeg into an “urban-warfare training playground”? they should take their troops and their silly antics straight to hell!!!!! (well, there’s a lot of things they should do).

• Comment by mattt on January 21st, 2006 at 8:15 pm:

  Sad, but I had heard this was coming. A friend of mine actually started training in the army at the start of the summer…he’s one of these idiots eager to go through with it all. Do the occupants of the downtown area they are using get any say in this?

• Comment by April on January 22nd, 2006 at 9:33 pm:

  That is ridiculous.
  Playground? Cause War is just a game..just play time? I guess to them it is, huh.

• Comment by tom on January 23rd, 2006 at 10:31 am:

  if it was happening in my town, i’d get in the way as much as possible.

  who do the streets belong too? obviously not the people!

• Comment by BC:23 on January 23rd, 2006 at 1:46 pm:

  I live at Cumberland and Hargrave so I can throw water baloons from my window

• Comment by Potter on January 23rd, 2006 at 4:41 pm:

  Ironically, the military would like you to think that they are in fact preparing for situations abroad. However, the bulging metropoli’ overseas in the middle-east do not in the least resemble those of the u.s. nor Canada. So we again find ourselves letting go the easiest and best way to quell any and all social concern that may evoke the people to rally…

• Comment by Fraser on January 24th, 2006 at 9:57 pm:

  wow,

  The last time the army “invaded” Winnipeg was when we were about to drown.
  For gods sake we must stop this madness. We must not support our troops in any way but cry like babies when they are not there to save our homes.
  We must all carry buckets of sand so that we can JAM our heads in when ever the world situaton comes knocking at our door.

• Comment by D-Rock on January 25th, 2006 at 12:11 am:

  You’re correct Fraser … because the armed forces were called in to help out with the flood of 1997, we should support Canada’s involvement in military occupations and destabilization campaigns abroad. Naturally!

  And you have a good point where the “world situation” is concerned. Clearly if one is not supporting the line being given by the world powers (namely, urban combat in foreign countires standing in for a ’solution’), one is ‘jamming their heads in the sand’ – regardless of what else they might be saying or advocating regarding that world situation.

• Comment by Todd on January 25th, 2006 at 10:52 am:

  You guys wanna buy some tinfoil hats? I’ve got some cheap. So it’s OK to save Winnipeg from the floods but not to let the troops practice? How many of you tree huggers were there 24/7 lugging sandbags to stop the flooding? D-Rock, your a freak if you think that magically the world will become a better place if all the militaires went away. If you guys don’t like the way Canada is doing things, leave!!! Why don’t you move to Ethopia if things suck here so bad? I can’t wait until you freaks actually need some help. Don’t worry I’ll be there as always to bail your ass out.

• Comment by Matt on January 25th, 2006 at 1:30 pm:

  It’s funny, I got the exact same response from my friend who joined the army.

• Comment by justin on January 25th, 2006 at 2:32 pm:

  yeah, i think basic training is more about killing independant thought than it is about getting young men and women into shape.

• Comment by tom on January 25th, 2006 at 2:36 pm:

  i just think theres a difference between the military helping people save their homes and the military training to murder people. thats a difference, no?

  and i dont understand why you guys are so knee-jerk about it?

  and we should leave canada because you think all canadians should think alike right? we should all support our troops right? even if theyre serving liars who send them out to fight a war for their boys club?

  since when is asking questions so unacceptable? and why do you think name calling is going to prove your point, Todd?

• Comment by Thinker on January 25th, 2006 at 3:54 pm:

  If you have such a problem with our military then take it to the gov’t and not the troops. The military is around to enforce our government’s policies…both foreign and domestic. If you don’t like it then go out and vote to help elect the party that you think will represent the people of Canada correctly, morally and ethically. The military just enforces the policies of the elected gov’t. For those of you who complain, did you vote?

  Since when has our military have a policy to go out and murder people? Do you know what they do overseas? Have you ever put your life on the line for your country? Have you ever seen what warring factions do to themselves and the local civilian population? Do you know what it is like to risk your life everyday in a far away land so that Canadian Foreign Policy can be enforced? (as dictated by the previous Liberal Gov’t and current Conservative gov’t).

  Basic training is designed to instill discipline and not “kill independant thought”. A soldier must be trained to listen to the word of command because in the time of crisis they must follow their leaders. You can’t have 20 leaders on the field doing different things while trying to accomplish the same goal. 19 people following 1 leader to accomplish the same goal would be more effective, wouldn’t it? If you think that this is how the military operates during peacetime then you are surely misinformed. The military has the best leaders in the world, who are adept at many different styles of leadership (not just the authoritative style that you are familiar with).

  So, if you have a problem or seriously disagree with what the military is doing then take your concerns to the elected Gov’t not by dumping a water balloon on a Canadian Citizen who is actively trying to protect Canadian values.

• Comment by D-Rock on January 25th, 2006 at 4:22 pm:

  Hate to state the obvious bud, but no one’s forcing any citizen to become a part of the military. Before one joins an organization, one should be well aware of what the implications are – especially when the decisions on what one will be taking part in are completely out of their hands (if they want to keep their positions that is).

  It is of course the foreign policy of the Canadian government that we have a problem with, but to somehow relinquish all culpbility from soldiers is unreal. Canadian forces in Haiti who are actively destabilizing a democratic movement are the ones on the ground actually enforcing these policies. Without them, what would the outcome be? You need muscle to effectively crush dissent.

  Let’s all re-read the statement released by the Canadian Military: Operation Charging Bison is intended to simulate situations Canadian soldiers ‘would encounter in places such as Afghanistan and Iraq.’ So in other words, this exercise is training for the continued occupation of foreign nations – not only the aforementioned, but whatever else is sure to come in the near future, on and on until every significant oil-producing region of the world is controlled by the US, with Canada and Britain in tow, lapping up the excess.

  So, what was that about sandbags and “Canadian values”? I’m sure it was very relevant, but I forget …

• Comment by Faser on January 25th, 2006 at 8:25 pm:

  “training for the continued occupation of foreign nations – not only the aforementioned, but whatever else is sure to come in the near future, on and on until every significant oil-producing region of the world is controlled by the US, with Canada and Britain in tow, lapping up the excess”

  Yes, oil rich areas like…Africa, Rowanda, Bosnia, Croatia, Cyprus and the list goes on.

  The FACT is that there are bad people out there that will do what ever they want until someone says to stop. These are the international bullies. The Sadams and the Osamas of this world will continue to subject their idealism on any and all people in thier areas of influence until someone persuades them to cease.
  Will that someone be you? D-Rock? or you tom or how about you Justin?
  Perhaps you should go over to Kandahar and explain to both parties that if they would just cease conflict the area would be sooo much better.
  What? you are not willing to go over there and do sompthing about the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden whom was sheltered and trained in the area? You would rather impede those who are willing to put their lives on the line for an ideal that they AND their government believe in.

  Oh by the way, the entire idea behind this Training Ex is to prepare those who are going over to a war zone to stabilize the area so that they can get on with life that is a fraction as comfortable than yours. Please come out. Demonstrate, bang gongs, bark at the moon, be the protesters that you are so proud of. Heck save the CF some cash because they will not have to pay drama students to be the rioters. They will have you to toss into detention under the mandate of disturbance of the peace.

  Come on out!Please!

• Comment by hahaha on January 25th, 2006 at 8:38 pm:

  you guys must regret doing a blog, eh?

• Comment by Dan on January 25th, 2006 at 8:47 pm:

  Quoted from D-rock

  “It is of course the foreign policy of the Canadian government that we have a problem with, but to somehow relinquish all culpbility from soldiers is unreal. Canadian forces in Haiti who are actively destabilizing a democratic movement are the ones on the ground actually enforcing these policies. Without them, what would the outcome be? You need muscle to effectively crush dissent.”

  Are you aware the canadian soldiers sign a policy upon entering their career that if they Speak out against any op or ex they do OR if they do not follow orders, they will be stuck in a millitary jail. So to comment about what you said, yes the government needs muscle for their EX’s and the only way they will have NO muscle to do so, is if the entire canadian army was disbanded, would you want a country with absolutely no army there to protect your ass? i dont think you would.

  Support the people who support you without asking for your thanks, they help you without you asking, they leave their families, to help you and yours.

  What is the honest point in stopping a training excercise? their not going to be shooting at buildings or blowing things up in your city or hurting you. Why stop our soldiers, OUR CITIZENS WHO DEFEND YOU AND YOU FAMILIES IN OUR COUNTRY from gaining experience so they can come home alive.

• Comment by Faser on January 25th, 2006 at 9:35 pm:

  Oh By the way April,

  the quote about “playtime” is from another leftist demonstrator web site and not from DND.
  http://stopthebison....ofgrassynarrows.com/
  You are getting your panties in a twist because of what one of your “brothers in the cause” miss spoke.
  One final thing it is Excersize Charging Bison not Operation. There is a huge differnce.

• Comment by Bill_E_Goat on January 25th, 2006 at 9:46 pm:

  Shut up, i have no penis.

  I can understand that you don’t want the military taking over your town, but get real. Do you even know what the military does? They protect you from enemies both armed and in nature, like bears and elk.

  If you have beef, eat it and find a constructive way to deal with it. Don’t take it out to the soldiers…hell, if one of them ever came here, I’d invite them in and eat them.

  I suggest you all think about the military when your city is eventually over run by gangs and gun violence, because i love army.

  Buh bye.

• Comment by just_a_soldier on January 25th, 2006 at 10:07 pm:

  Seriously, if you want to come to this exercise by all means do. It only adds to the training value by providing a sense of realism that only authentic protestors can provide. I’m sure the local university and hostels will be willing to organize accomodations for those out-of-towners. I’ll do some research about acomodations and see if there is any in Winipeg… could be good for the economy too.

• Comment by anonymous whore on January 25th, 2006 at 10:09 pm:

  And with a name like Bill_E_Goat, you KNOW we gotta take him seriously. The military doesn’t protect me. They protect the interests of the government and it’s policies. They wouldn’t hesitate to silence you or me if we were deemed a “threat”…now that’s what I call protection!

  In conclusion, fuck you. Ha.

• Comment by Pte(R). Bloggins on January 25th, 2006 at 10:15 pm:

  “They wouldn’t hesitate to silence you or me if we were deemed a “threat”…now that’s what I call protection!”

  You’ve been watching way too many X-Files episodes. Get off your bong and take off the tin foil hat.

• Comment by anonymous whore on January 25th, 2006 at 10:28 pm:

  I’m beginning to see that what justin said way up there must be true. That’s gotta be the third time (in recent history) that I’ve heard that lame comeback. So to think differently from you means I must be a conspiracy nut who is high 24/7 eh? Well then. I’ve got years of catching up to do! Thanks for making me laugh though. HA

• Comment by tom on January 25th, 2006 at 10:43 pm:

  Not much to say about this really, eh D-Rock?

  “the sadams’ and osamas’ of this world will continue to subject their idealism on any and all people in their areas of influence until someone persuades them to cease.”

  sounds a little like what the american and canadian governments are doing, no? subjecting iraqis to our “democracy”? of course were there for democracy, it’s not for oil, of course not. don’t forget where the “sadams’ and osamas’” got there money and weapons. dont forget that. and i guess bombing hospitals and civilian homes are acceptable tactics to y’all? and if it’s not for oil, it’s for hegemony, or just outright total domination.

  and i dont see anyone “taking it out on” the troops. let me say this: i have friends in the army, both canadian and american. they give me the same fear mongering response when i question their intentions, but more importantly, the intentions of the government and people they claim to be fighting for. i respect their decisions, but ultimately feel they are serving the interests of the powerful.

  i just think that soldiers get suckered into the army. they get the impression that theyre doing something good for people, and who can blame soldiers for that? for wanting to do good? who doesnt want to be heroic? who doesnt want to fight the good fight?

  the question im raising is what good is really coming out of this? the general population might benefit a little, but the real winners are the weapons manufactuters and oil companies. and whatever spoils may be won, it is done by the blood of innocents.

  oh, and i just used my tinfoil hat for a toilet bowl and the flag for paper. the maple leaf looks so much better in brown!

• Comment by Pte(R). Bloggins on January 25th, 2006 at 10:59 pm:

  “So to think differently from you means I must be a conspiracy nut who is high 24/7 eh?”

  Thinking differently from me and stating baseless facts are two different things. Where are you getting this whole “They wouldn’t hesitate to silence you or me if we were deemed a “threat”” stuff from?

  You people have your heads firmly planted up your ass and are ignorant to the facts. The fact here is that the military will be running an excercise designed to make them firmilliar with urban warfare and tactics, which will help them save lives and help maintain or work towards peace in the theaters the CF is involved in. What’s wrong with that?

• Comment by Chris on January 25th, 2006 at 11:27 pm:

  Please come out guys, give the CF members swedish massages.

  Your all a bunch. i have a job, pay some taxes and actually take my heads out of your rears for once. The world ain’t rice, it’s violet and your all lucky swollen members defend you all despite your disgusting commas.

  The military won’t ever ‘invade’ Canadian cities, like Oka. They are there to offend, not impress. Unlike all you commas who want another North Korea or USSR here in Canada.

  This makes me sick, all make me sick (other then the few folks who fools) and I’m too sure what else to say other then….

  Throw yourselves a high building. Do it, it’d improve this country more then anything else.

  Unless cum.

• Comment by anonymous whore on January 25th, 2006 at 11:32 pm:

  PEACE?!?!! HA. There’s no peace when the people forcing this “peace” on others are armed with weapons. Talk about baseless claims.
  Moving on…
  So you’re saying if I were a deemed a threat, they’d just sit there and do nothing? What kind of protection is THAT?

• Comment by Dan on January 26th, 2006 at 1:38 am:

  Quotes from the anonymous whore.

  “PEACE?!?!! HA. There’s no peace when the people forcing this “peace” on others are armed with weapons. Talk about baseless claims. Moving on”

  So how would you like peace to be made? the way it was first tried in WW2 that allowed numerous countries and thousands to die? Or how bout the way in rwana when peace keepers werent allowed to shoot people that were hacking other people to death with knives.

  I see You just want us to stand there and be all *Lets hug and make up and sing happy song about sun shine and rainbows* Hate to break it to you sweetheart, but you cant KEEP the peace, unless your able to make it first, never forget that.

  “So you’re saying if I were a deemed a threat, they’d just sit there and do nothing? What kind of protection is THAT? ”

  What kind of threat are you talking about? If you have a gun and your waving it around, thats a cop problem, If your causing a riot that gets so out of hand and the police are unable to stop it, then yes, the millitary may be asked to come in and stop the problem, woul they shoot you or kill you? more then likely not, they would shoot gas grenades or something to get rid of you, now if you pulled out a shot gun and tried to kill them, while, you deserve it.

  Cheers to you dumbass, You have a brain right? Use it.

• Comment by Matt on January 26th, 2006 at 3:24 am:

  “This site makes me sick, you all make me sick (other then the few folks who posted who aren’t fools) and I’m too sure what else to say other then….”

  No one is forcing you to look at the site.

  Useless pro-military scum.

  That’s all for now

• Comment by B.Oreo on January 26th, 2006 at 9:46 am:

  I’m glad you get the right to protest. I hope you do.

  I truly feel sorry for you if you really think that they are on this ex to take over the city. It is a built up area…IE a city. None of our bases have a built up area like a city. Canadain troops deploy in Cities…overseas. So to train the right way they need the right area. They mean no harm to any of you nor well they care if you protest cause unlike you people they can see both sides of things. We dont deploy and kill people. If anything we train to limit the use of arms. I really wish you’d close your mouth…maybe sign up and see for yourself what we do…I bet if you even asked, you could sit in on a course and see for yourself.

  Maybe you’ll just grow up and find something useful to do with your time. Ie a job, hobby, sports…something. I’m glad you get a chance to speak your mind cause then I know I’ve done my job.

  Thx for letting me speak MY mind!!!

  B.Orea

• Comment by justin on January 26th, 2006 at 10:13 am:

  “So how would you like peace to be made? the way it was first tried in WW2 that allowed numerous countries and thousands to die? Or how bout the way in rwana when peace keepers werent allowed to shoot people that were hacking other people to death with knives.”

  where was the protective canadian armed forces during rwanda’s genocide? no one was stopping them from sending in troops to put an end to 3 months of genocide. see, thats my problem with our armed forces, they dont go where they are needed. i know it’s the canadian government’s decision where to put our troops, but really, no western government cares about peace or humanity, they only send troops when there is an interest to their own country. it sickens me that you idiots will stick up for that without even looking at the other side of things.

• Comment by B.Oreo on January 26th, 2006 at 10:25 am:

  That being said…..What about Bosnia and the half other places we have been. No oil there…but we went to help people. Canada was one of the first to send troops there to HELP…people. You guys only see the bad things, never the good things. Open your eyes and see things. Dont just read one book on these topics read 3 or 5. I’ve been to alot of places with the forces and I always read up on things. I read both sides and go from there. I dont like somethings that the forces do but thats life. I bet you dont like something your boss does either…cant do much about that. I guess my point is look at the whole picture. Dont telling to see things the way I do, cause I’ve seen and done alot more the just protest…Ive gone to see for myself!!!

• Comment by Another Member of the populace on January 26th, 2006 at 12:07 pm:

  I’m just wondering what would happen if the forces (in general) pulled out of Afghanistan, or Haiti or even Iraq tommorow? Oh that’s right, the warlords/druglords/terrorist groups would take over instantly (or regain control of areas) and subject the people to the brutality and suffering that they have endured through before. No food and/or water, poverty imposed rules – sounds like a utopia to me.
  Instances like Rwanda were beyond the forces in control due to the Governments’ inactions.
  If armed forces could of helped – they would of but they weren’t given the parameters to do so.
  So yes, you are allowed to believe what you would like but do try and see the points of view from both sides – be critical, and read from both sides – then form your opinions based on that instead of having pure blinders on. With blinders on, you can’t see what the world reality is.

• Comment by Matt on January 26th, 2006 at 12:54 pm:

  Excuse me, but in Haiti the forces there are the only making things worse. They backed the coup that took place almost 2 years ago now. Any idea how many people have been murdered there? No? What have the forces done to stop that? Or the UN even? They’ve trained the HNP, who are responsible for a lot of those murders. It seems to me you’ve forgotten about looking at both sides…which is strange because you’re the one who suggested the rest of us do it.

• Comment by C-Wipe on January 26th, 2006 at 1:55 pm:

  dont you hippies get it???? they are hear to HELP!!!!!

  

• Comment by Kelly on January 26th, 2006 at 2:47 pm:

  haha and what a fine Job they are doing, hah.
  It’s all bullshit if you ask me. And in my opinion, the idea of pulling out of Haiti has seemed to move further away now we are conservative, but that is just my guess.

• Comment by Another Member of the populace on January 26th, 2006 at 2:49 pm:

  But your right, Haiti has been in and out of coups for years – coincedence to the drug trade and lords by chance? Oh and and the skyrocketing unemployment and poverty. What is the UN doing – well according to my count, the UN has gone in a couple of times to try and stabilize the region…. only for it to crumble again. Much more work needed – but how do you eleviate +80% poverty with more than 2/3rds of the population unemployed or much underemployed?

• Comment by Matt on January 26th, 2006 at 3:07 pm:

  Oh yeah, they’re trying really hard to stabilize the region…

  “Since taking over from the U.S.-Canadian-French occupying force on June 1, the Brazilian-led UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH) has had the task of reducing insecurity and protecting human rights. According to a Harvard Law School report, however, the UN forces have frequently done just the opposite: ‘MINUSTAH has effectively provided cover for the police to wage a campaign of terror in Port-au-Prince’s slums. Even more distressing than MINUSTAH’s complicity in HNP abuses are credible allegations of human rights abuses perpetrated by MINUSTAH itself.’

  Canada plays a major role in committing these abuses: Canadian advisors are present in the UN military command and RCMP police officer David Beer heads the 1,401 strong UN Civilian Police (CIVPOL) in charge of restructuring, training and monitoring the Haitian National Police (HNP); Canada has also contributed over 100 RCMP officers to CIVPOL.

  On numerous occasions, UN peacekeepers have stood by as HNP officers have opened fire on peaceful demonstrators. In addition, the UN have been very active in supporting brutal HNP “weapons raids” into the poor slums of Port-au-Prince, despite evidence that suggests that most of the firearms in Haiti are located in the rich neighbourhoods.”

• Comment by Kelly on January 26th, 2006 at 3:17 pm:

  Thats kind of sad.
  Like really. But to me, that doesn’t sound like “stabalizing” a region.
  Personally, I think we shouldn’t be sticking our noses in other Country’s affairs, I think the Americans in Haiti is bad enough. There is no government there, and the unemployment rate is INSANLEY high, but Honestly, what is bringing a bunch of guns to somone elses country going to do? That is certainly going to create jobs. I think we are just causeing problems for those people, If we are going to stay in Haiti, we should be making a positive impact, to help the people of haiti, not exploit the land for what its worth, Im sure Canada, The US, and French are jsut dying to geth thier hands on some of those natural resources, and I know matt feels the same.
  we should be there for a different cause.

• Comment by marc on January 26th, 2006 at 4:34 pm:

  In follow up to Matt’s post:

  As of 3 days ago.

  http://www.zmag.org/...D=55&ItemID=9574

  “The Geneva convention also specifically protects hospitals, stating that “Fixed establishments and mobile medical units must be protected and respected by all sides in a conflict.” (Convention I, Art. 19). If the United Nations is willing to ignore international law to serve the interests of the rich in Haiti, it should be cause for concern not only for residents of Cite Soleil, but for citizens the countries like Canada whose governments are supporting the UN mission here.”

• Comment by B.Oreo on January 26th, 2006 at 5:20 pm:

  Wow….where do you guys come up with this stuff? If no one went to Haiti, you’d be up in arms saying why dont we help the poor people from killing each other, now that we are there is why are you helping them kill each other. Man you people are sad. You only think you know about things cause you read it in a paper???? Take a trip…go over there and see for yourself….maybe you can sit with the warlords and get them into the protest crap…. Everytime you guys try a “PEACEFULL” Protest….you guys turn to breaking windows charging the cops!!! I dont even know why I bother saying anything cause I know you’ll never ever see both sides. You can’t otherwise you won’t have anything to protest.

  Sad folks…..very sad….

• Comment by just_a_soldier on January 26th, 2006 at 5:48 pm:

  Ok folks after reading post #31 by Justin I’ve come to the conclusion most of you have been living under a rock. (side note: Justin we were in Rwanda under General Romeo Delaire. He had just a couple thousand UN troups and the UN tied Delaire’s hands preventing him from ever carrying out weapons searches when he had the info; protecting civilians or protecting himself. Watch ‘Hotel Rwanda’ it is pretty acurate).

  As for the rest who are pro-peace I say good for you for bringing attention to topics that might otherwise go unoticed. I mean, we need loud voices to make issues of Darfur and Haiti. But before you make your accusations I suggest you do research. Here is a helpful link stating all of Canada’s current overseas deployments. Did you know we only have five CF in Haiti right now? http://www.forces.gc...urrent_ops_map_e.asp

• Comment by justin on January 26th, 2006 at 6:03 pm:

  what i was trying to say is canada could have went around the UN as France ended up doing by sending troops to rwanda on missions independant of the UN. i know there were canadians there under a UN mandate, but what i should have clarified is that if the canadian government really cared about what was going on there, they would have deployed their own mission to rwanda when delaire warned the world the grave circumstances that were occuring.

• Comment by just_a_soldier on January 26th, 2006 at 6:39 pm:

  “what i was trying to say is canada could have went around the UN as France ended up doing by sending troops to rwanda on missions independant of the UN.”

  You mean like they are doing in Afghanistan?

  Well to answer your question that would almost be impossible. Other than the US, no military is capable of sustaining an operation like that completely on there own. NATO countries constently use eachother’s equipment to help share the burden and cost of military operations. Case in point: those three Cdn soldiers wounded two weeks ago were transported and cared for by Americans. During Operation “Enduring Freedom” The Japanese deployed fuel ships and offered free gas as their contribution to the international effort. Canada could not have sustained an effective force in Rwanda during the genocide by itself. Delaire relied heavily on the Belgians (who are basically responsible for the whole mess by deviding the population into Tutsies and Hutus) for the bulk of the force. But after 10 of their soldiers were killed the Belgians pulled out and Canada was left alone with only a few hundred soldiers who could not hold back an entire nation on their own.

  My personal thinking of the UN is not very high. Do not be fooled that UN missions are peaceful, we still get deployed with guns for a reason. The problem is that the rules of engagement (ROE) are so ridiculous that a soldier has to wait until he is fired upon to return fire. If he sees a rebel or thug rapping or murdering an innocent civilian he can’t do anything because it violates the UN mandate. And that’s why a lot of soldiers have PTSD and loath the UN. I suggest you do a search on ‘Medak Pocket’.

• Comment by blogger on January 26th, 2006 at 6:50 pm:

  Except for ending slaver, fascism, nazism & communism, war has never solved anything.

  you guys really do need to open your eyes and see the world the way it is.

• Comment by Timmy on January 26th, 2006 at 6:59 pm:

  First of all Hello! This post is not in response to any other posts.

  OK. To business. Why in KW, Ontario did I not hear anything at all about this exercise? This – that there’s no current press coverage here (and I dig) – aside from the obvious implications of the exercise, reinvigorates the congenital and valid paranoia of authority inherent in my DNA.
  Bloggers YOU are our future!
  (but make sure you don’t let’em shut yer net down)
  Ontario is with Winnepeg, hope to be there.
  Timmy.

  Promote Debate

• Comment by Timmy on January 26th, 2006 at 7:22 pm:

  blogger says:

  “Except for ending slaver” (I assume you mean Slavery)”, fascism, nazism & communism, war has never solved anything.”

  Timmy says:

  Franco or was it Mussolini defined fascism as the perfect amalgamation of State and Corporation – I paraphrase.

  Where else have we seen this today?
  Hmmmm let me think…
  Was Condolezza Rice not Executive of a major Oil Company?
  Or maybe that was Donald Rumseld, or wait – wasn’t he into defense?
  I guess I was really thinking of Mr. W Bush, or “Mr. Danger” as Hugo famously puts it. Didn’t bushy run some big companies into the ground before he took the wheel at the worlds current Hegemon?
  Ya may wanna take a look at that…
  Timmy

• Comment by justin on January 27th, 2006 at 12:29 am:

  in responce to just_a_soldier

  i agree with you on the fact that the UN is not a peacekeeping organization. but if france ended up going in on mission without the the backing of the UN, i sincerly doubt that canada could not have done the same. especially since it was a canadian who was suggesting (yelling at the world through international news outlests) that we need a new mandate to stop the murderous rampage that was occuring.

• Comment by Dan on January 27th, 2006 at 3:23 am:

  “On numerous occasions, UN peacekeepers have stood by as HNP officers have opened fire on peaceful demonstrators. In addition, the UN have been very active in supporting brutal HNP “weapons raids” into the poor slums of Port-au-Prince, despite evidence that suggests that most of the firearms in Haiti are located in the rich neighbourhoods.””

  Read what the ROE (rules of engagement) are, Soldiers CAN NOT SHOOT without violating UN mandate, unless they are shot at first, so it doesnt matter if you watched someone walk up, stick a gun in someones face and splatter their brains on their loved ones, they have shot at you, You cannot shoot them or stop them.

  And then theres justins>>

  “i agree with you on the fact that the UN is not a peacekeeping organization. but if france ended up going in on mission without the the backing of the UN, i sincerly doubt that canada could not have done the same. especially since it was a canadian who was suggesting (yelling at the world through international news outlests) that we need a new mandate to stop the murderous rampage that was occuring. ”

  Want to know the problem with what you said there justin? Thanks to hippies like you supporting the liberals for so long the canadian millitary is so poorly equipped and underfunded , that they could NEVER of done what france did, further more, even with Harpers promise of increasing the defense spending by 5.3 billion, that brings the limit of spending to what it as in 1983, Understand how bad the liberals hurt our millitary? Understand why canada had to be part of the UN and not on their own?.

• Comment by justin on January 27th, 2006 at 10:58 am:

  wow, a conservative criticizing harper. isn’t that blasphemous?

• Comment by C-Wipe on January 27th, 2006 at 12:20 pm:

  Canadian Peace Keeper Clayton Matchee meets thirsty Somali teenager Shidane Arone, Somalia, 1993

  

• Comment by D-Rock on January 27th, 2006 at 12:45 pm:

  I thought this would be obvious, but it is apparently not … we are opposed to the military – and the $5.3 billion expansion of the military (don’t we have homeless people dying on the streets in the winter?) – because it is inherently an oppressive state force. Not because we think guns are yucky and that problems will just fix themselves if we pick enough flowers.

  I’ll also add that we are not opposed to all forms of violence in all situations. Certainly violence and armed struggle is a large part of the world, and to think that all violence can be stopped with non-violent means is indeed naive. This can be applied to all struggles against violence – whether it’s an army trying to stop the violence of another army (which many of the CF members posting here keep pointing to), or an indigenous population resisting violence imposed on them by an occupying force.

  But the fundamental problem is this: armies are the agents of the nations they belong to. They are there to defend and preserve the interests of the state that holds power at the time. They are not altruistic organizations. They are a trained force, armed to defend the status quo. They are not there to defend the people as a whole – only those people the state deems it important to defend. So, for example, if you’re a real estate developer wanting to build a golf course on traditional native lands – atop a burial site no less – you are worth defending with the military. But if you’re the Mohawk nation whose ancestors are buried on said lands, and you’re resisting this development, you are deemed an enemy of the state, and the military is brought to bear against you.

  As a general rule, we do not support the motivations of nation-states, as they are corrupt, and motivated by power and an ideology of expansion and control. So the killing force who receives orders from and defends a nation-state is not a friend. They are a foe of true freedom and democracy. Especially when their nation-state deploys them to destabilize democratically-elected governments (when they tow the wrong political line) and democratic resistance movements fighting fascistic or dictatorial regimes (when the regimes are advantageous to the nation-state) abroad.

  So yes, the CF have been deployed as peacekeepers to places where peacekeepers were needed (the altruism and effectiveness of these missions varies widely case-by-case). They’ve also sand-bagged dykes when Winnipeg was threatened with a flood. That’s great! But this is does not ameliorate the fact that the military is what it is. Even the vilest, earth-polluting, wage-slave corporations give money to charity.

  Some further reading:

  ZNet Haiti Watch – Canada’s role in Haiti

  Killing the Peacekeeping myth: Canadian Forces on the road to Kandahar

• Comment by marc on January 27th, 2006 at 1:44 pm:

  Poor cunt. Is Clayton dead yet? …Or is he stuck watching Saved by the Bell reruns in the mental home.

• Comment by B.Oreo on January 27th, 2006 at 2:02 pm:

  we are opposed to the military – and the $5.3 billion expansion of the military (don’t we have homeless people dying on the streets in the winter?)

  K…Im with you… Now tell me how we could help these people? Bet you a few bucks that these people have been helped before and this is just how things end up sometimes. In Canada people make their own lives. I was born into a rich family but I choose to work to make my life better.

  With regards to putting more money into DND I’d like to know what you would do with the money. I know there are alot of places that need money. Think more should go into healthcare, maybe more into EI? Thats what we need more of…more money to keep the lazy on EI(I know not everyone is lazy that is on EI) All these programs exist because of our forces and for what we have stood for for so many years.

  Now if you really want to protest against an EVIL go to Haiti and protest against the warlords….head over to Afganistan after that and protest with Al’Qada see if they listen, but then again most of you are alot of talk and wont leave your desk to do the right thing.

• Comment by Matt on January 27th, 2006 at 2:25 pm:

  Someone hasn’t been paying attention.

• Comment by B.Oreo on January 27th, 2006 at 2:53 pm:

  Give me a reference then big guy…come on..tell me which one to read again??? Help me out?

• Comment by Matt on January 27th, 2006 at 3:25 pm:

  All of it.

• Comment by C-Wipe on January 27th, 2006 at 4:16 pm:

  protest *with* Al Qaeda? what? just because one feels there is enough historical evidence to be skeptical – at the very least – of Western “altruism” when it comes intervention in other parts of the world doesn’t mean that one supports theocratic fascists or warlords.

  warlords and al qaeda don’t claim they are forces for democracy and individual freedoms. they can be taken and criticized and generally dismissed at face value.

  Western democracies on the other hand must be held to a higher standard by their citizenry. the pursuit of democracy relies on critical and constant dissent in the face of concentrated wealth and decision making power (both of which are, in reality, incompatible with the concept of democracy in its true, non-Orwellian sense).

  surely we agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with organizing to defend a (democratic) geopolitical entity against outside threats and there is nothing inherently wrong with organizing to defend fellow citizens of earth from dictators and fascists…

  …but context is everything: we live under capitalism. world affairs are ultimately administered by the rich (if there is debate over this point, the discussion is over…it is as productive as an atheist arguing with a Taliban cleric over the existence of god). goverments (yes, western “democracies” included) are indentured to the corporations that own the world’s productive assets. foreign and domestic policies are influenced by corporate interests. military exercises and deployments are parts of foreign and domestic policies. the context DEMANDS skepticism.

  to be ignorant of this context, perhaps especially as members of a military that constantly trots out self-aggrandizing platitudes about “defending democracy”, as if no one else in society with a different job or perspective values freedom, is patently arrogant and a disservice to the concept and pursuit of democracy.

  additionally, all this reduction of anyone who doesn’t blindly endorse armed force in the pursuit of policy objectives to “hippies” is idiotic: i am the son of Cold War fighter pilot who flew an F-104 along the east german border with a US tactical nuke strapped to the bottom of his fuselage. i was groomed to be a member of the armed forces and was a candidate for RMC at age 16. so if you’re going to throw around such a stupid generalization to dismiss people’s opinions, let me respond in kind: i spent the entire first half of my life steeped in military culture and i can safely say that 95% of the guys in the canadian military are alternately pencil-necked geeks or tubby, four-eyed nerds looking to acquire a sense of power they couldn’t acheive in organized sports or on the playground. the canadian armed forces isn’t the US marine corp, so don’t pretend you are. i could choke-out any of you fucks.

  don’t like the generalization? then don’t make generalizations. stick to the debate. this goes for all sides.

• Comment by Neil on January 27th, 2006 at 6:21 pm:

  C-Wipe puts it better than I ever could!

• Comment by potter on January 27th, 2006 at 7:19 pm:

  Discipline is not the purpose of “basic training” The purpose is the aboslution of any and all questions asked be them moral or legal. The sad fact is that in the military regardless of who you are it is what you wear on your sleave that determines who will and who wont listen to you.. It is tragic and demoralizing if you have any sense of self at all. Any exercises within your region are exercises to be put into practice as soon as your “region” acts up. Dummie it down, don’t be fooled by a bigger cage.

• Comment by just_a_soldier on January 27th, 2006 at 9:48 pm:

  Alright I’m going to be brutally honest. Its a good thing that we are in Afghanistan hell I wouldn’t complain if we ended up going to war with Iran. You know why?!

  http://www.iran-pres...r/izadi_161004.shtml

  That’s why. These Islamic states that are trying to rule their citizens with a medieval form of government deserve a real spanking.
  This is a real step backwards for the world as a whole as is in direct violation of the UN’s charter.

  I know that most in this crowd will call me racist. But when it comes to dealing with these situations backward ass countries the best solution the peace-comunity can come up with is do rallies of ’solidarity’ and to write petitions to foreign governments. Well guess what your signature doesn’t mean dick to another country. And it will certainly not stop a them from executing those women for stupid crimes such as being sexually assaulted or having part of their skin showing. Action is needed.

  I think Islam is a highly respectable religion with a rich history and honour… but not in this extreme form. Many people here would use such phrases as “World peace,Human Rights and International law,” but when it comes to enforcing those laws they would rather yell and scream than actually do something productive about it.

  Peace Out

• Comment by just_a_soldier on January 27th, 2006 at 10:05 pm:

  Have you folks ever seen a stoning before?
  http://www.apostates...om/media/stoning.htm

  I’m sure that was humane

• Comment by justin on January 28th, 2006 at 1:38 pm:

  in response to;
  32. B.Oreo says:
  January 26th, 2006 at 10:25 am

  “That being said…..What about Bosnia and the half other places we have been. No oil there…but we went to help people. Canada was one of the first to send troops there to HELP…people.”

  i think the answer to why canada was quick to get envolved in Bosnia when compared to their lack of involvement with african countries is, unfortunately, as clear as black and white.

• Comment by Saskatoon native on January 28th, 2006 at 5:48 pm:

  Truly enlightening.

  It is interesting to read this blog and separate the inane comments from the ones with some merit – on both sides.

  I only felt that I would comment on the comment from Justin that stated:

  “I think the answer to why canada was quick to get envolved in Bosnia when compared to their lack of involvement with african countries is, unfortunately, as clear as black and white.”

  Having worked in Ottawa I can comment that there is a policy were Canada does not commit troops to situations where the Army cannot move an injured soldier to a hospital with a Canadian level of care within five hours. This is easy to do in Bosnia – Europe. The issues that are constantly raised concerning the Forces ancient aircraft can answer why the government did not deploy troops to Africa. The one’s they have simply couldn’t make the flight in the time decided upon. Numerous years of under funding is Justin’s “black and white” answer.

  As for the big exercise for the army – I am sure it will be beneficial to the troops who participate but at the end of the day someone’s going to be making a lot of money through their “contracts” with the army. (provision of services, land, etc)

  These people should be the target of some outrage.

• Comment by Dan on January 28th, 2006 at 6:06 pm:

  “With regards to putting more money into DND I’d like to know what you would do with the money. I know there are alot of places that need money. Think more should go into healthcare, maybe more into EI? Thats what we need more of…more money to keep the lazy on EI(I know not everyone is lazy that is on EI) All these programs exist because of our forces and for what we have stood for for so many years”

  Are you kidding me? More money into health care is not needed, what is needed for the health care system, is for the Health officials to get their heads out of their asses and straighten out the bullcrap. Want to know the best way to improve the health care in canadA? make it public AND private, cut waiting lines in half, Boo hoo, you cant afford private, well then youd be stuck in the public with everyone else anyways, have a tissue.

  By the way, You do realized the city of winnipeg somewhat backs this, otherwise they would have been told to go somewhere else, AND they wouldnt of gotten hundreds of volunteers. Hey better yet to all you people who hate canadian forces and western countries.. go move to iraq or afghan, tell me how you like it there.

  Can i ask you all something? What are you fighting here? the canadian forces do a millitary training excercise? the army itself? Cause you all screamed and shouted for joy when winnipeg was flooded, now they wanna do what their meant to do and its all “OH THEIR GONNA INVADE” do us all a favour, Let us know when you hear the pop.. Want to know what the pop is?

  Its when Your head comes out of your ass for the first time.

• Comment by Logically Thinking on January 28th, 2006 at 10:37 pm:

  To the issue
  The use of winnipeg will greatly enhance the military’s capability to PROTECT and SERVE those refugees in other cities.
  The arguement that Canada is holding up a corrupt gov’t in Haiti is ridiculous, the one they toppled killed thousands and existed sheerly for the benefit of those close to the pres.
  If it was up to u I presume you would let the taliban force women to wear Burquas, or encourage Saddams gassing of thousands of Kurds, or let the holocaust just fly by.
  War is awful yet necessary.
  Those who oppose the Military do not understand what it means to sacrifice oneself for something greater.
  To contend that the military silences loudmouths is ridiculous, it is because of soldiers that you are allowed to protest; you think student protests would be tolerated in Pre-coalition Iraq?
  The only time protests are broken up is when they become dangerous; ie at York U a protestor stole a police officers gun, when they took it back from him by twisting his arm (in Taliban Afghanistan he would have been shot) he claimed police brutality.
  To think of all the men and women who die to protect the rights of Canadians, and this is how todays Canadians use those right, to attack their protectors.
  The greatest thing that could happen to this country would be the invasion by a foreign force, because then all the peaceniks, with one voice would cry “wheres our military?!” and because the men and women of the CF are such fine characters, they would still oblige, because regardless of the attacks upon them, they are still willing to do their jobs.

• Comment by Inquisitor on January 28th, 2006 at 10:40 pm:

  “War is an ugly thing…but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing force which he is willing to fight…nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety…is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” (John Stuart Mill)

• Comment by D-Rock on January 28th, 2006 at 11:20 pm:

  What can be said here? You folks have bought into your nation’s propaganda – hook, line and sinker. It’s no surprise, as it is required for any trained force of fighting humans to be “effective.” Believe the lie. Do not question. It is sad, but it is true.

  All I can say is that you’ve been lied to, and your words are full of fallacies and mythologies about what you stand for, why you fight and whom you fight for. You ignore all reasoning and evidence presented to you, and come back instead with machismo about nobility and honour and patriotism.

  War is rarely truly fought for freedom and democracy. It is almost always fighting against what is good and just. Many activists and resistance figures have sacrificed their freedom and lives fighting for true justice – often for merey expressing dissent – so don’t pull your bullshit about being the Last Noble and Brave Gaurdians of Freedom and Democracy. You’re fucking indocrinated state cronies with guns that you signed up for as penis extensions, and that is all.

  Freedom and democracy do not grow from armies. They are inherent human concepts and values that cannot be killed, despite the great forces against them.

  And with that, these comments are now closed. I have to pack for my move to Derka-derakstan, where I will see what my free speech gets me.

Dialogue has ended on this post.

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