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Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land
Posted by D-Rock on 10/04/05 (Shite)
I attended some films at the Canada-Palestine Film Festival over the weekend (disclosure: G7 is a festival sponsor) and was particularily struck by the film “Peace Propaganda and the Promised Land: U.S. Media & the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.” We’ve made no secret over the years that we’re fundamentally opposed to the occupation of the Gaza strip and the West Bank by Israel, and are somewhat versed in the brutal reality of the occupation (save Brent, who can’t be bothered to pull his face out of the latest issue of Metal Edge). But even so, this film made me sick with anger and despair. Israel’s actions are fucking criminal, and the complicity of the U.S. government and media in whitewashing the 38-year-trampling on the lives, rights and land of the Palestinian people is almost unbelievable. Except I believe it. This film documents the institutional filters in place to virtually ensure pro-Israel reporting in the U.S. corporate media, and the historically unprecedented and massive support for the state of Israel (in particular its military) by the U.S. government.
If you’re interested in reading more about the history and current state of the occupation, check out the ZNet Israel/Palestine Watch, or for some paper reading, check AK Press’ selection (plug: we also carry a great Tanya Reinhart book in the store).
Note to anti-semitic trolls: we’ll delete your knob-headed comments as quickly as they appear, so don’t even bother!
57 fragments of dialogue thus far ...
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Comment by Taylor on October 5th, 2005 at 12:21 pm:
Couldn’t agree more. Israeli actions in the West bank, and gaza, are not only criminal they are inhumane! Looks like the Zionists are alive and well! Unfortunately for the Palestinians, no westerners are actually exposed to the horrors of the Israeli occupation.
I just finished reading the book “Why Blame Israel?”. Its claims of non-partisan commentary, slowly disolve from the mind after reading the first two chapters. However, the book does give a good synopsis of the events leading up to the current situation.
Taylor S.
Comment by thomASS on October 5th, 2005 at 1:17 pm:
for sure. i’d even go as far to say that this “tactic” (white-washing military brutality, anti-semetic propagandhi)is used in pretty much every conflict situation “our” governments are involved in.
take haiti for instance. just saw a documentary called “Haiti: The Untold Story”, about the other side of the conflict you don’t see. It gives a very good glimpse into the atrocities carried out by the Haitian Police while UN forces stands by and watches. I encourage all to see it. It will enrage you. and hopefully engage you to act. it is brutally and vividly honest.
and as always: back to the colonizer. it seems the way of the world right now still boils down to the relationship between the colonizer and the colonized. these brutal regimes who put their boots on the faces of these peoples, and soon ours too.
another issue i think the mainstream media avoids are the real victims here: the children. 10 year old boys put out to fight an old mans war. 8 year old girls MURDERED BY ISRAELI ARMY. its sickening.
http://www.haitiaction.net
Comment by thomASS on October 5th, 2005 at 1:19 pm:
oops. thats anti-semetic propaganda, NOT anti-semetic propagandhi. ugh….
Comment by caítlin on October 5th, 2005 at 4:16 pm:
I find it utterly infuriating when someone calls me an anti-semite for refusing to support genocide. And suddenly, you’re lumped in with this group of rightwing wackos and militant republicans (they chose sides here; in catholic estates you see palestinian flags, in protestant, israeli). I’m not kidding.
Thomass, Znet have some good articles on Haiti, not sure if its on the site itself or the commentaries, but theres a lot of stuff worth reading.
And definitely, I remember seeing these fucking nauseatingly sentimental pieces on news channels during the disengagement, spliced in with images of celebrating Palestinians like they were the oppressors or something. Its absolutely absurd how influenced the press is, how utterly biased in many many cases. The BBC news shows&about two broadsheets are about the only places I can really think of that mention it, and then not a lot at all. Not enough when you think of whats happening right this instant.
This isn’t rhetoric - what should we do, short of joining/funding the ISM? People are so reluctant to activate “against” Israel, and the participation of our government just rubberstamps that.
Comment by ryan on October 6th, 2005 at 10:48 am:
not only does “our” governments support the genocide by their zionist oppressors, there is a framework built right into our society that keeps the Palestinians as the “terrorists” and the israelis as the “terrorized”.
as an undergraduate political science student at a very conservative university, i have had several over-zealous proffessors fail my papers because they were (and i quote) “not based on any factual evidence”, but when i appealed to the dean of my department, my papers have been not only accepted, but they recieved high marks. my point is, not only has ‘our’ government became a tool of propaganda against us, our institutions face increasing pressure to comform with the party line, so to speak. it’s time to take back OUR country, before our neighbors to the south get more imperial ambitions.
Solidarity
Comment by 4130Punk on October 6th, 2005 at 2:05 pm:
I was also an undergraduate in political science except I went to a left wingish/hippie school that is run by conservatives and zionists. I participated in a solidarity action protesting the wall, checkpoints, and occupation in general and the zionist groups on campus found out about it and outnumbered us 10 to 1. I have never experienced to much hate in my life. And of course the administration and police just stood around and watched while members of our group were assaulted and uttered death threats against us. Also, a member of our group was expelled (overturned later) for using a megaphone inside of a building. It was fucking scary and I’m glad my old hockey team wasn’t around because there would’ve been some fights.
The whole Palestine/Israel debate is framed exactly how His Majesty George W. Bush frames the war on terror. It’s either you support Israel or you are an anti-semite just like it’s either you’re with the US or you are against them. I am not a terrorist nor am I an anti-Semite; this dichotomy does not function in the real world outside the Ivory Towers. Basically, we are forced to choose between whose terrorism we wish to support instead of supporting strategies and visions that do not endorse any form of terrorism, occupation, or imperialism.
RIP Rachel
Peace and solidarity
Comment by riseup on October 6th, 2005 at 8:32 pm:
Will Israel Start World War Three?
agree with the article totally. Check this
one out very interesting…..
http://www.infowars....icalize_arm_iran.htm
Comment by riseup on October 6th, 2005 at 8:45 pm:
What you are about to embark upon is an unclassified government document which most of you probably never heard about before. It details and explains the U.S. government’s plans to carry out a terrorist attack on American soil and to blow up a U.S. ship or plane and to point blame on Cuba to get the country and the whole world behind a war against Cuba and to oust communist leader Fidel Castro.
http://www.utopiax.org/northwoods.pdf
Comment by riseup on October 6th, 2005 at 8:46 pm:
read carefully
Comment by xFirecrackerx on October 7th, 2005 at 2:58 pm:
^Consipiracy theories make my head hurt. Did you read the stuff about 9/11 on that website? It gets the mind thinking. Scary.
—
Back on topic…
—
Get involved:
http://www.endtheoccupation.org
This organization has actually received some time on national news programs. Ron Reagan (leftist son of former President Reagan), the co-host of the MSNBC show “Connected: Coast-to-Coast”, frequently invites a representative from the organization to speak out on the issue. It’s one of the only times you actually get some honesty in the national news media.
Comment by caítlin on October 8th, 2005 at 6:17 am:
From eatthestate.org
”
Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, showed his true colors last week as his normative praise of “democratic values” subsided. “I announced as clearly as I could that we formally oppose Hamas participation in the election as long as it is not disarmed and has not cancelled the Hamas charter, which is a horrible document,” Sharon stated on Wednesday. On Saturday, he went further in an interview with reporters in New York, rejecting calls for democratic elections in the Occupied Territories, “We will make every effort not to help [the Palestinians]. I don’t think they can have elections without our help.”
Hamas plans to engage in the Palestinian political process, as it has in previous municipal elections, so why hinder the charged peace process after the successful “disengagement” of Gaza? Sharon realizes that Hamas is gaining momentum in the Occupied Territories and understands how much political power it can attain through sweeping parliamentary elections, which will likely occur in January if Israel doesn’t interfere. Keeping a balance of power between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas effectively destabilizes a unified Palestinian voice and further advantages a politically savvy Israel. Israel supported Hamas in the 1980’s as a counterweight to the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO)–the de facto representative of the Palestinian people–because the PLO was gaining political ground on the international front.”
Looks like a cool organisation, we really need to start something like that over here.
“It’s either you support Israel or you are an anti-semite just like it’s either you’re with the US or you are against them. I am not a terrorist nor am I an anti-Semite; this dichotomy does not function in the real world” Seconded. And its horrible when demos turn into brawls. :(
Comment by riseup on October 9th, 2005 at 9:02 pm:
yeah man 9/11 was an inside job
Comment by N8uRE a.k.a. Nate Moreno on October 14th, 2005 at 11:25 am:
The official story behind 9/11 is quite illogical. I read this book by George Humphreys called, 9/11: The Great Illusion - End Game of the Illuminati, Our Choice: Fear or Love? and boy oh, boy! Let me tell you. Bush and Co. are some sick bastards. I tell you, Jimmy Swaggart ain’t got shit on Dubya. But also about Palestine…if anyone ever has the chance, Noam CHomsky’s Thought Control In Democratic Societies is a valuable tome worth reading. This conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians could be likened to the conflict between the Europeans and Native Americans of North America. An invading country trying to secure their own interests by committing genocide against a race that they deem as less-than-human. Simply put, the U.S. and Israel could’ve made life a loss let shitty for themselves and the Palestinians had they abide by several of the proposed UN security and General Assembly resolutions. As long as the US and Israel stand alone on issues such as peace, they will always be the target of global enmity.
Comment by caítlin on October 16th, 2005 at 5:10 pm:
Some of you might find this interesting;
A very good friend of mine from Blighty sent me a package today with poems and testemonials and drawings from Palestinian kids he counsels… fuck, its really heartbreaking. But its so significant and so important because young people rarely get a voice in these conflicts, and this was a version of events completely without agenda, a simple human perspective…
These bits really stuck out; “here in Palestine, there are no children anymore, even young children, they are all defencing to have the nationality and the identity… there is nothing let us remain except the air we are breathing”.
A thirteen year old wrote this;
“i want to say that we dont hate Israilians but hate there government because its killing palestinians so they have to protect thereselves by puting bombes and making explosions in Israel.”
“[can't read this bit] would like survival without bullets and tanks…sometimes i wake up I see the israels soldier beside my house i can’t go to my school, whats this life its a bad life. Why the American Children survival in a nice life.”
This isnt hyperbole and it isnt rhetoric, its no attempt to manipulate you - these are real words from real kids; something thats quite hard to come by when the media is so biased.
Comment by GiveMeThe40 on October 17th, 2005 at 6:19 am:
The word(s) anti-semitism was first used by the king of israel in conversation with the prophet Elijah. The king of Israel condemned Elijah for being anti-sematic for disagreing with the actions/policies of the king. aka.. yuo hate me, i am the king, the king IS israel, you hate israel, you’re anti-semetic..
this is explicitly mentioned in the bible
nice to see the ‘meaning’ of anti-sematism hasn’t changed too much in all those years.
Apart from the plainly obvious..
Comment by Kyle on October 17th, 2005 at 4:30 pm:
In a humanities class I had during my first year of university, we went over the terms used to describe the people/languages of various regions. Indo-European and Sinitic, for example.
Semitic, the professor said–and this was a Pro-Bush, Christian kind of guy, if that matters–refers to the people of the Middle East in general.
But how it seems to be used, and I guess that Bible passage supports this idea, is focused merely on the Jews. What if you “don’t like” Saudi Arabians? Iraqis? Iranians? Afghanis?
What if you don’t like Germans? Are you anti-Indo-whatever-the-fuck?
Comment by Fat Pat on October 18th, 2005 at 3:22 am:
Nice thoughts, everyone. I just kinda breezed over some of the comments but I don’t think I saw anyone mention the working conditions of most Palestinians. From what I understand the relationship between Isreal and Palestine in a labor sense is a lot like the relationship between China, Latin America, the Far East, and much of the 1st world. Palestinians make so little that Isrealis can enjoy the cheap products that are produced in the Palestinian equivalent to a maquilladora.
I’m going just by memory though, I could have the facts fudged. Nope, sorry.. no link. Just a thought.
Comment by Phil Campeau on October 18th, 2005 at 12:15 pm:
It seems utterly ridiculous, but it’s almost impossible to criticize Israel, simply because people feel that the Jewish people are pure innocence because of the Holocaust. This is obviously not to say that there is something wrong with the Jewish people, any more than a tirade about G.W. is saying that all Americans are evil.
It’s unfortunate that so many of the Jewish elite feel a need to throw the words “Holocaust” and “anti-semite” up whenever anyone speaks out against Israel. You can see it in the letters section of each and every issue of Adbusters, and in any newspaper the day after an article denouncing any action of any person of Jewish faith or heritage.
What’s most confusing about it all is that other people who were targeted by the Nazis do not get this same advantage. Gypsies (who were killed at a far greater rate, killing more of them both in numbers and in percentage), are all but ignored in the international media. Gays, blacks, catholics, none of these people are allowed to talk about their losses in the Holocaust, because some feel that to do so would lessen the impact on the Jewish people. Yet in denying others the chance to talk about their suffering at Nazi hands, we lose something more. The truth.
Ward Churchill’s latest book “A Little Matter Of Genocide” is an absolutely brilliant analysis of this topic.
Anyways, I’m glad to see all the comments on this forum, it’s nice to see that there are some intelligent people out there.
Comment by The Truth Is Fickle on October 18th, 2005 at 4:16 pm:
I will refer to “4130Punk”’s comment regarding the protest at his unnamed University run by “conservatives and zionists.”
I will say, up front, that I am not Jewish, nor am I Palestinian, so I do not have a “vested interest” (for lack of a better term) in the issue. I am aware of the issues from both sides of the debate; looking at the situation as either black or white is an incredibly short-sighted action to take.
I was in the area at the time of the protest. The only assault I saw (and I was present for the entire debacle) was by a member of the protesting group against a disgruntled passer-by who had done nothing to provolk the attack.
My criticism is that this protest was not focused strictly on the issues, as it seems (unfortunately) many do not. Members of this group (whose name I am intentionally not mentioning) that forged the rally were doing everything in their power to distract and annoy at first, in order to grab attention. I understand why this tactic was used, but to unwelcomely occupy an area to protest an unwelcomed occupation is such an absurd hypocracy.
After this protest, after marching down hallways with a megaphone while classes were in session (many of which were studying this exact issue in a more direct way), the group did everything possible to tell the public how they were “assaulted and threatened,” up to and including using the same mainstream media outlets that they were protesting against (for their coverage of Palestine/Israel) in the first place!
Atrocities are atrocities and if what you have to say is actually compelling enough to make people change their minds (and it is)then use your knowledge and information as a weapon to cut down the facades in place. But by screaming and yelling like a bunch of asses, barely attacking the issue, and crying afterwards about alleged “assaults” that never took place, you do nothing but weaken your message and make people actively ignore you.
Thank you.
Comment by caítlin on October 22nd, 2005 at 2:23 pm:
I found this http://www.counterpu...g/nader10162004.html and thought it was quite apt regarding the antisemitism thing.
http://www.zmag.org/...=107&ItemID=8939
interesting article.
camera.org is quite a website.
This
http://world.std.com...oncamera/ocdisc.html
is particularly amusing.
The “supposed brutality of the Israelis”? I thought Zionists were beyond pretending it didn’t exist.
I was meant to hear old Fisky talk in the belfast festival yesterday but I missed it, boo. His new book is meant to rock though (www.robert-fisk.com/book_extracts_s…). If you want to read some of his articles - http://www.robert-fisk.com
Counterpunch have a couple of good israel articles at the moment, and an article by Nader about Harriet Miers which is (off topic - sorry, but..) worth reading
Comment by eyegor on October 24th, 2005 at 6:17 pm:
Hey guys, i know im writing in the wrong place, but….
i’m fucking worried cuz of this shit.. check it out -> http://freepages.gen...T_Glen_1957-1996.JPG
eheh ;)
Comment by riseup on October 28th, 2005 at 1:56 pm:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/
everyone should check this out.
Comment by riseup on October 28th, 2005 at 2:00 pm:
many good links concerning global elite.
Comment by fish on October 31st, 2005 at 6:12 am:
Ever since i read Laurie King-Irani’s article ‘Massacres Don’t Just Happen’ (on this site a few years ago) the israel/palestine conflict has sickened me and caused me to leave the road of “yeah thats sooo bad” but not actually doing anything,and get off my ass and learn what i’m talking about..having a displaced palestinian as a flatmate also helps i guess. the simple fact that noone cares….hard to believe.
Comment by caitlin on October 31st, 2005 at 12:18 pm:
“the simple fact that noone cares….hard to believe. ”
It floors me, it really does. I remember when I found out what the holocaust was, it just seemed so illogical, so ridiculous that no-one stood up and defended those people. I thought maybe it was a generational thing, or maybe it was historical anti-semitism, that it really didnt seem like what it was because people were so used to violence against Jewish people.
Maybe people just dont see themselves as responsible or cspable of changing it… and for all our good intentions, I really don’t know what we can do. The fear of being called an antisemite stops people from reacting en masse, can we do it ourselves? I don’t know.
The idea that its happening again - fuck, that it hss HAPPENED again, look at Rwanda - os crippling, when it should be provoking.
I can see why people are scared to open up the door though. It requires a whole lot of re-evaluation and changing of thought processes….
Comment by tomASS on October 31st, 2005 at 7:35 pm:
I think an important thing to do is to define for yourself (based on evidence and opinion of course!) what anti-semitism is and act against it, of course.
i think one of the best things about anarchism is the power to name. the ability to recognize things for what they are from the bottom up, i guess…..
i think just the fact that Israel was “created” to be a safe haven from persecution and violence, and now it has become a state of violence and persecution is a horrifying thing. i think soon the west bank will become a concentration state.
and thats when you think: should i just stick my head in an oven? but i dont think that its that simple, and how appropriate for us to have the priviledge to give up.
Comment by caitlin on October 31st, 2005 at 8:55 pm:
The anti-semitism thing is very interesting, in fact. I’m no theologian (ha), but my pops is, and from what I hear, Israel is a christian-philosophical concept for the kingdom of god or jeebus or one of them lot, that exists within every ‘believer’. It was never actually supposed to be manifested in geographical or political terms. It doesnt sound particularly relevent to a political argument about the israel/palestine situation, but so much of the arguments I hear are based on the idea that a particular race is a particular god’s chosen people (Gotta love a racist god, eh?). Maybe I’ve just been sleeping on his floor too long..
Co-incidence though, eh, that the three major religions find their spiritual crux in the one little city?
Maybe the first thing to do is share information…
“should i just stick my head in an oven? but i dont think that its that simple, and how appropriate for us to have the priviledge to give up.”
Darn tootin’. Its pretty fucking bizzare that its us - the people who dont directly suffer from the conflicts - who get depressed/fatigued/hopeless, no? I have a good friend from Rwanda, and (different though our poltics certainly are) his strength/faith/something never fails to amaze me. Maybe you only fall apart when youre comfortable enough to.
I think you’re right, there is a huge liberation in stripping away the obligatory euphemisms and looking at concepts or real life events for what they are, rather than what they’re supposed to be viewed as. Although to be fair, it isnt just anarachism that promotes that. I do think, though, that its anarachism which provokes a concentrated re-examination of your privileges, your conditioning and your complicity. That sounds kind of high fallutin, doesnt it? I blame my antimoron pills.
Comment by jason on October 31st, 2005 at 10:53 pm:
Really, if it’s not a crime then why post it.. The problems with this confederate south (u.s.) have been in the face of everyone for far more time than is admissable. We are tyrants fuck imperialism. The south won and, the sadist are preaching there peace through violence world wide. I am a sad part of it and, death awaits me at every meal… I shall go see propagandhi, like the savage makes up a work week in the confessional on Sunday. I will go see something I believe in. Even if it is only a couple of guys saying “fuck you” at volume. It is sad to think “Americans” wont get the message until they are left bleeding behind a club after a cool show… fuck this system of mechanized thinking…. fuck it…
Comment by IgnoranceIsBliss on November 2nd, 2005 at 1:22 pm:
9/11 was an inside job check out all the evidence for yourself
http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html
Comment by IgnoranceIsBliss on November 2nd, 2005 at 1:25 pm:
http://www.prisonpla...t.com/northwoods.pdf
Official US goverment plan from the 1960’s calling for state sponserd terrorism against their own people as a pretext to invade Cuba.
read carefully……. the techniques they plan on using are truly scary
Comment by IgnoranceIsBliss on November 2nd, 2005 at 1:26 pm:
G7 erased my last posting…. free speech….?? check it out
Comment by D-Rock on November 2nd, 2005 at 2:47 pm:
Did we really?
Comment by tomass on November 2nd, 2005 at 6:23 pm:
ignoranceis bliss- did you know that G7 Welcoming Committee Records is actually a government sponsored “audio media agitation propaganda” machine that they created to start a “revolution” to provoke the Canadian Armed Forces into exterminating all forms of resistance in this country? its pretty fuckin scary, man. heres the link
http://www.fuckinbullshit.ca
READ CAREFULLY
Comment by tomass on November 2nd, 2005 at 6:39 pm:
cait- i dont know how you do it, but every time you seem to address these issues with such accuracy and cleverness. now thats “darn tootin”.
im not trying to reduce the crisis in palestine to a religious issue, i think its much more than that (conquering of the world, like). religious wars i think stretch way back to the beginings of…….religion. if you think about it- religion is pretty much exactly the same as nationalism. we are all imbued with this sense of faith towards a certain “omnipotent” being, or we are taught to memorize our anthem. and we hold a certain set of beliefs that everyone else in our nation or our religion have.
its just insane on how deep this is. i questioned a christian militant once (what the fuck is that?) about his undying faith and he ACTUALLY LOOKED ME RIGHT IN THE EYE and said “go back to hell, you spawn of satan.” he said it with such conviction that i got pretty scared.
and i think a lot of people have to see this: that its not about christianity, islam, or judaism. its not really about israel/palestine. its about the fuckers at the top, wanting to stay there, doing anything they possibly can to keep themselves there.
the religion of power in a state of greed.
my head FUCKING HURTS. it took me 5 hours to write this.
Comment by PunkRock on November 2nd, 2005 at 10:53 pm:
http://www.punkvoter.com for all your “real” political information
Comment by John on November 3rd, 2005 at 12:57 am:
Just wondering, but isn’t it a little hypocritical to be deleting people’s posts?
Let people say what they want to say?
Comment by fish on November 3rd, 2005 at 7:22 am:
right….um…is mr PunkRock over there being serious? cuz y even post that link? it just makes jumping outta my window seem like a really good idea. at first it was like “wehay great, another band is going to try and convey a reasonable political message to the youth” then its like “oh no…their idiots”…
Comment by D-Rock on November 3rd, 2005 at 9:02 am:
We only delete off-topic posts, to avoid the comments from becoming a message board. Not sure what post IgnoranceIsBliss is referring to. His “last posting” appears to be right above the one where he claims we erased it (?). Even though it should be erased, as it has nothing to do with this entry. On second though, maybe I’ll erase it right now … ha!
Comment by caítlin on November 5th, 2005 at 12:20 pm:
Thankyou Tomass! …although you did just call me a ladypart! ;) (caít is pronounced catch - a euphemism for vagina! but I’ll take that as a compliment…)
Anywaaaay - I think that there is a profound difference to be found between people who are happy to object to the conflict, but mystify it by putting it down to “spiritual” issues (an ages-old excuse which has rarely inspired anything but utter disgust from the people directly impacted by the situation, and justified complacency for those not impacted) - and those who are willing to strip away the obvious and look at what is often the political.
It IS, very often, a class issue - probably more so a privilege issue, and a matter of competition - and thus is particularly rampant within the most deprived areas of what is generally (and probably misguidedly) referred to as the “privileged side”, as well the oppressed. Obviously, I don’t live in Palestine or Israel, so I can’t state that it works the same way over there, but the same conclusions seem to be drawn wherever there is a conflict like this.There is a very clear agenda to avoid any real analysis of the situation. Its much easier to blame it on religious differences, or religious fundamentalists, than the gaps between rich and poor, competition among the underprivileged, and the blatantly careerist agendas of those supposedly representing their people. Nobody wants to look at these conflicts, as, at least partly, class issues.
Anway, I found a quote about anti-semitism at the start of the conflict;
“In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. [sound familiar?] The Arab’s opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism, but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people”
- The Origin of the Palestine/Israel Conflict, published by Jews For Justice In The Middle East.
I got the paper version of this the other day and it seems pretty good – you can read it or download it as a PDF here; http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
“religion is pretty much exactly the same as nationalism. we are all imbued with this sense of faith towards a certain “omnipotent” being” – Surely. And it’s the same all-or-nothing, with us or against us idea that this omnipotent being is on your side, that if you don’t obey then you’ll be attacked by what was once reds and is now terrorists, or that your faith will be desecrated etc etc. Fucking exploitative institutions keeping their grips by playing on fear and manipulating.
Comment by The Truth Is Fickle on November 8th, 2005 at 12:34 am:
Has anyone here read something that was not an editorialized article? Can anyone here distinguish between “news with spin” and an “editorial?” Because pretty much every single article link posted here as “fact” has been in fact “perception.”
The straight facts are (please feel free to dispute this) - Israel was created as what amounted to a sanctuary. Jordan wants no part of the Palestinians, nor does Egypt, nor does any country the surrounding area. Most countries in the Middle East have historically treated Palestinians like lepers (and yet they are given praise, by the same groups that shun them, any time they strike a significant blow against Israel). Palestinians not allowed to live in Jordan and Egypt congregated into what is now “Palestine.”
Israel was created (as has been mentioned here already) as essentially a sanctuary. Every single battle that has been fought by Israel, contrary to what most BS-artists will tell you, has been DEFENSIVE. Every action of Israel has been DEFENSIVE. For anyone who doesn’t understand what that means, when Gaza and the West Bank were taken, they were taken in a war that was NOT initiated OR willingly entered into by Israel. These territiories were taken in a bid to stop further wars against Israel.
We now sit at a time where Gaza has essentially been given back, though Palestinians and their so-called government (if you can call it that) do nothing to really stop the influx of violence against Israel. You know how they keep a free nation? By having a big army. That’s right, they have a system that works, that is able to sustain itself, and that is relatively rich. So they can build their military, a military that is NOT used to fight “proactive” wars (like Iraq for example, which was backwards from the start), but simply used to ensure the safety of their people in measurable terms.
Look at it from the perspective of an Israeli - An area is experiencing a lot of suicide bomber activity? And the offending country’s (Palestine) governing bodies won’t do anything to stop it? Well then F–K you, F–K that area and F–K collateral damage in that area. All this because if we (Israelis) do not carry this military strike out, the deaths will not accumulate as innocents dead in Palestine, rather it will accumulate as dead Israelis in Israel.
And though they have this capacity to defend their nation, they also take care of their citizens in ways Americans could only dream of. Public health care?! Imagine that! The American government pisses away more money than they should on our military to the point where they could not sustain a Public Health Insurance program.
I can assure you right now, if attacks from Palestine stopped, Israel would have no wild dreams of trying to “take over” their country. They are content to live in peace and to keep to themselves. And when they have to take drastic steps to ensure the safety of their own they are bashed and bashed and bashed.
Keep religion out of the argument, Israel has proved time and again (and pulling out of Gaza is a testament to this) that religion impacts very minutely on their foreign policy and the way they govern their people. Anyone who says that they are “shut down” for criticising Israel is likely “shut down” because they don’t have anything worthwhile to say.
Don’t blame your lack of compelling arguments on people calling prejudice on you.
I’m not Jewish, and I’m not Palestinian, and I tilt pretty far to the left, I just won’t buy into garbage information that blatently ignores the other side of the argument because it’s the “Liberal” thing to do. Maybe read an article from someone whose organization hasn’t devoted its entire self to the “counter culture.” Of course, don’t read crap from Fox News either. Find a group that tilts slighty right, and one that tilts slightly left, and make a judgement call, but making your decisions based on an article from “counterpunch.org” is both moronic and shortsighted.
Thank you.
Comment by fish on November 8th, 2005 at 12:37 pm:
yeah i don’t see any evidence that the israels are overly hostile…i mean the massacres of sabra and shatila…..who cares? just a bit of a laugh for general sharon…you know, mass slaughter of innocents is all fun and games. and also, my flatmate is a displaced palestinian whos family know lives in jordan, and from his first-hand accounts:
1. he’s seen the israeli soldiers primarily attacking holy sites (sounds like relgion may play a part there).
2. to defend their own people israel murders innocents? and drives my friend out his house through threat of murder? his family kept grew fruit…what danger did they represent, hang on….cherry bombs??
3.jordan is possibly the most welcoming country for the palestines…hell its currently being overrun by iraqi refugees.
israel may have pulled out of gaza, but its no secret that the majority of the israeli gvt. was opposed. take what happened today!
http://news.bbc.co.u...dle_east/4416386.stm
and why would jerusalem be so important to the israelis if religion has nothing to do with it?
i think you should take you own advice and look at both sides of the argument.
Comment by caítlin on November 8th, 2005 at 1:39 pm:
There are really only a few points of this i want to respond to right now; you’re not going to change my mind and i’m not going to try to change yours, but suffice to say I’m confident of my sources (i don’t appreciate the implication that they revolve around counterpunch (now who’s spinning?) or indeed that we aren’t capable of discerning by ourselves) and really, when it comes to simple fact you’ll find the left and right argument tends to fall away. Generally, as you said, the judgement is your call.
Projection or “perception” comes with the territory when reading articles (less so when reading books, i think) and i post them in the faith that people can read them appropriately. In fact its frustrating for what I consider many valid arguments to be diminshed as spin because you chose to believe another source - to label writers like Chomsky and Rhienhart “BS-artists” is quite a foolhardy accusation. Do you sincerely believe they have embellished to mislead? If you can, for example, show me the inaccuracies of the Reinhart book I will be more than happy to listen, although admittedly it wont change my mind on the general conflict. Can you show me documentary evidence that Israel has in fact never initiated aggressive action toward Palestine? If your argument is rather that they are justified in their actions, or have been suitably provoked, we will simply have to agree to disagree.
I don’t agree with your comments about israel being justified in collateral damage (in fact, i think you’re far from starting at the beginning), as many conflicts will show revenge achieves little - a point which both could learn - and punishing the innocent citizens of the country in conflict merely encourages radicalisation. Its important that you remember firstly that the actions of the Israeli government have led to the deaths of many of their own people, secondly, that many people opposed to the occupation of palestine are also opposed to the violence perpetrated by the Palestinians, and thirdly, we’re not all fans of the PLO. You seem to be projecting your own idea of our behavior onto us - I for one do not see it as a black and white issue and I’m sure many would resent the implication “because it’s the “Liberal” thing to do”.
I wont leave religion out of it, because it seems very relevant when we’re analysing our media’s reactions to the conflict [in fact, some of us have mentioned ourselves that we don't think the main motivation of the occupation is religion] and I think its unjustified to suggest the only criticism those opposed to the conflict face are based on a lack of facts.
Comment by tomass on November 8th, 2005 at 3:24 pm:
caitLYN: ah….female reproductive anatomy…..my favorite subject! er…. sorry. of course i didnt know, and you should take it as a compliment. what about Lyn?
truth is fickle: yeah, and i dont know why the “facts” (or articles submitting evidence to support facts) that caitlyn and others post to this blog are reduced to spin, and the paragraph you wrote and claim to be actually factual isnt. your opinions and that of the israeli government and army arent necesarily facts at all, in my opinion. i dont understand why you submit your opinion and trash others for doing the same.
i dont see how imposing a state over a place ALREADY INHABITED by a people is defensive. i dont see how murdering unarmed children is defensive. i dont see how receiving a billion dollar military budget from a world superpower and empire is defensive.
maybe if America dis-continued Israeli military financial support (and their own, of course), you might find yourself with a health care system there, bud! but i doubt it.
but of course! i see! thats why the Isrealis are defending themselves! its because theyre rich! they can afford a big military! its all so clear now. and the palestinian resistance, theyre all suicide bombers! oh! and theyre poor, so of course they have to cease the only means they have to fight! diplomacy works, right? im sure sharon is such a nice guy at the dinner table.
you see, you didnt even have to post a link and you brainwashed me. wow.
Comment by fish on November 8th, 2005 at 3:40 pm:
hehehe…sarcasm seems to be the weapon of choice for all of us here…
Comment by IgnoranceISBliss on November 8th, 2005 at 10:25 pm:
Ok D-Rock??
Is this article ok with you?
CIA + Mossad + MI5 = AlQueada /Hamas/ every other terrorist organization
Comment by IgnoranceISBliss on November 8th, 2005 at 10:25 pm:
http://www.whatreall...com/fakealqaeda.html
Comment by fish on November 9th, 2005 at 5:01 am:
i think it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. it comes as no suprise that members of our intelligence services will do all they can to increase public support by having fake cells, blaming bombings on al Q’aeda etc. but i don’t think (even after reading that article) that al Q’aeda are actually just the cia in disguise. of course there will be moles and double agents, its exactly the same with the IRA or the Bastas, but i don’t believe its on the scale that that article suggests.
Comment by fish on November 9th, 2005 at 3:52 pm:
this may be a little off topic, but as i mentioned my flatmate is from jordan, and as some of you may know there has just been three hotel bombings (one very close to his house, he is still unable to contact his family). i checked it out on the web after he recieved the news and was fairly schoked to see:
“Major U.S. markets dipped in reaction to news of the attacks but remained in positive territory; the Dow Jones Industrial Average was recently up 0.2% to 10,557.95, the S&P 500 was higher by 0.3% to 1221.84, and the Nasdaq Composite was up 0.2% to 2176.68.”
there has just been a bombing with at least 18 dead, and over 140 wounded…but its ok because the US markets are still on the up!! sickening.
Comment by IgnoranceISBliss on November 9th, 2005 at 6:26 pm:
here is proof mi6 was behind the london bombings
http://www.infowars....g05/020805Aswat.html
Comment by tomass on November 9th, 2005 at 6:26 pm:
the fact that theyre even mentioning stock markets after a horrific event in Jordan, is absolutely terrifying.
i can see the 6 oclock headlines now:
Major Terrorist Attack in Jordan
Dow Jones gets a booster!
What was britney wearing at the award show?
Hockeys back, and so are the Jocks!
Corporate journalism makes me so nautious.
Everyone in corporate journalism kill yourself!
Comment by D-Rock on November 9th, 2005 at 10:47 pm:
IgnoranceISBliss: I appreciate your passionate advocacy on behalf of the theory that there is no such thing as terrorists who want to attack the imperial empire states like the US and Britain, and that every time one of them is attacked, it was self-inflicted by the elites to justify the crackdown on civil liberties. I don’t entirely see its relevance to the post at hand regarding the Israeli occupation of Palestine. However.
The question that always comes to my mind when reading “conspiracy” theories regarding 9-11 and other world events, is this: how does this information change how we fight against empire and assholes? Is it supposed to change our tactics?
If the invasion of Iraq was in fact spurred on by an attack on the US that originated from within the power strcuture, as opposed to from elsewhere, the fact remains that Iraq is still occupied. The public has had mountains of evidence that the invasion was based on lies and has been totally brutal, illegal, and immoral. Yet, the occupation continues.
What is the end goal of Alex Jones, or David Icke, or any of the other conspiracy evengelists? What are we supposed to do with these blanket conclusions other than run around the internet pasting links into any box that has a ’submit’ button?
I guess my question is: does it really matter?
Comment by IgnoranceISBliss on November 9th, 2005 at 11:00 pm:
D-Rock
you make a good point ive never thought from that perspective but the fact is those conspiracy theories have evidence that points toward an inside job. The more people that know the truth of how evil and corrupt our elite realy are the more they will question everything!! Im just trying to point out the facts that mainsteam media would never report and even leftist websites dont get into the facts of these attacks such as 911. Basically all governments policies have changed after this event and if it was a fraud than why not spread the word.
Comment by IgnoranceISBliss on November 19th, 2005 at 12:59 pm:
http://media.putfile...ons-Demand-Answers74
Here is an intense music video that rips into the BUSH ADMIN,,,,, very good send to everyone!!!! FIGHT THE POWER
Comment by IgnoranceISBliss on November 19th, 2005 at 1:59 pm:
D-Rock you really dont see the importance of 9/11 without 9/11 Iraq would have never been attacked. I am also not spreading this all over the net like u imply. I happen to be a big fan of propagandhi and credit them from opening my eyes to many issues and I feel issues like 9/11 should still be discussed because there are some many holes in the official story. What so i should be just protesting to end the occupation of Iraq???
While my civil liberties and freedoms are being tossed in the garbage for security ???
9/11 enabled them to do these horrible things
and think tanks like PNAC, (project for a new american century) CFR (Council on Foreign relations) on documents show they needed a pearl harbour event to scare america into submission
Comment by fish on November 20th, 2005 at 4:25 am:
is that a sage francis IgnoranceisBliss? sounds kinda like him. i was given a dvd by a guy i bought a Big Issue from, and it followed the same idea, that there were bombs detonated inside the building. whether or not its true…
Comment by IgnoranceISBliss on December 2nd, 2005 at 12:44 pm:
no its immortal technique
Comment by jeni on December 6th, 2005 at 8:10 pm:
The Truth is Fickle is absolutely right.
I just wrote a wonderful post, but unfortunately forgot to submit my email so it got erased. perhaps at another time I will have patience to resubmit.)
For now, Truth is Fickle, know that I wholeheartedly agree with your assessments and am so relieved that a person with some sense of fact and history posted here.