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• Comment by tomass on January 9th, 2006 at 4:46 pm:

  the other day i was driving along and i saw a baby deer that was struck by a car. the deer survuved and apparently will re-habilitate, but the sight brought tears to my eyes.

  our presence seems to only destroy now. the only creation we witness is maybe human life, maybe some small splinters of hope borne from some inspiration. we’re on a lost course.

  or maybe we’re self-destructively pessimistic?

  may i add that if we go down let us also take the cars and celine dion with us.

  my high point today was reading about sharon………

• Comment by njdevil666 on January 9th, 2006 at 5:20 pm:

  Goddamn, that made my day a bit brighter. Especially that cruel fucker getting his house burnt down. Now if only the Devils could win a few games…

• Comment by Danarcho on January 10th, 2006 at 2:39 pm:

  That’s as funny as when that magician got mauled by the tiger in Las Vegas.

  I learned a few days ago that mice are capable of singing. Maybe they have songs of resistance.

• Comment by marc on January 10th, 2006 at 3:38 pm:

  I know I’m going to be in the minority on this one..but an 81 year-old’s house being set on fire by a mouse..it just doesn’t seem right to bring up that feeling of indignantion… comeuppance…man. I know I’ve argued about this on the blog before..I know animal rights and such. But is it possible to believe that an old guy’s house burning down because of a rodent he tried to get rid of a tragic thing and not just desserts?

  I try and try, but I simply can’t accept that we should morn for a dead mouse as much as a dead human being.

  Now…don’t hit me.

• Comment by marc on January 10th, 2006 at 3:41 pm:

  Fuck it – it was a rumor.

  http://www.wsbtv.com.../5973746/detail.html

  I guess all is well.

• Comment by D-Rock on January 10th, 2006 at 4:15 pm:

  Is my face red. Is it?

  Nonetheless, it may not seem very compassionate to be happy that anyone’s house burnt down. But it’s all relative. In that, I care less about humans everyday. So, I guess it’s realtive to that … for me anyway. Err, ugh, blurgh, grumble, cough.

• Comment by tom on January 10th, 2006 at 6:24 pm:

  well, it may “just be a mouse”, but i bet that mouse could sing better than the 81 year old man. and id rather house a mouse than an 81 year old man….

  and marc, no human died. only a rodent died. the man killed the rodent. murder 1, yo. sure the guy lost his house, but how many mice have lost their homes, their habitat for humans? how many mice have died?

  mice are an integral part of the natural enviroment, and the more they die the more the enviroment dies and the more we die. one mouse may seem insignificant, but to me, property value isnt worth an animals life.

  i just realized that house and mouse rhyme. maybe i should write a poem?

  isnt it disgusting? how the slaughterhouse men stated they’d rather not kill the cow now that it has shown a willingness to escape? “its so touching”. but the rest of the cows doomed right?

  go molly go! (what a bad name, meat farmer)

  plus, vegan flatulence is so much more attractive!!!!!!!!

• Comment by marc on January 10th, 2006 at 11:38 pm:

  No human died, but according to the second article the guy has no insurance…Honestly, I wouldn’t want the quality of my life to be severely threatened because I killed a mouse.

  And before all else, why would you rather have a house mouse than an 81 year old man? When, specifically, is having a human being preferable over an animal?

• Comment by Yaniv on January 10th, 2006 at 11:40 pm:

  Well, I understand why someone would find ludicrous to mourn the death of a rodent over that of an old human being. The rodent, nonetheless, has interests, irrespective of being a non-human animal. And certainly those weren’t to be incinerated.

  Yes, I know, the story was a farce.

  But In echoing P. Singer’s focal point in defense of animal rights, there’s simply no reason to aggresively attempt to hurt the mouse on the basis of superiority of species, or what he coined “specieism.” We can reasonably speculate, if the story was real, the mouse was not adversely harming the old man nor his property. Instead, just on grounds of revulsion for the poor thing, the old man would hurt, or even more despicably, burn the mouse. Here, once again, would a human fail to recognize the interests of the another, different being, which are the opposite of feeling pain or languishing in fire.

• Comment by D-Rock on January 11th, 2006 at 12:07 am:

  And before all else, why would you rather have a house mouse than an 81 year old man? When, specifically, is having a human being preferable over an animal?

  Always.

• Comment by caítlin on January 11th, 2006 at 7:29 am:

  I’m with Yaniv on this one. There was no reason to do what that man did, or allegedly did. Whether you believe that humans and non-humans are equal or not, simply on the basis that little mousey undoubtedly had the capacity to suffer, the guy should have at the very least tried to limit his suffering. Why would you not? And when you think of the suffering he caused, its hard not to have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and think perhaps the old guy just got a taste of poetic justice. But revenge isnt necessarily a good thing, and to care for the wee mousey doesn’t mean you have to stop caring for the old man.

  Marc, it kind of seems to me (and I could be wrong. It happens rather frequently..) like you have this problem with animal rights because you think its a choice between humans and non-humans… that, rather as being an extension of your compassion (as I see it), its a re-route of it toward another species.

  You don’t need to qualify who deserves more, to help either. If you show respect and compassion to animals, it stands to reason that you are – at the very least – not harming human beings and in fact, greatly helping the plethora of wee critters on our planet, when you consider the very sensitive bio-balance and even more so, the environment itself. Animal rights are human rights too, as long as meat eating damages the world we live on.

  I guess its a bad example because in this story there is a side to be taken, but animal rights in general is not an exclusion of human rights. In fact, if you were to sit every vegetarian in the world down and ask them to pick, you’d probably find most would put humans first. The point is that its not necessary – we should be compassionate towards animals because there is simply no reason not to be. I think when we get to this point and it comes down to the dividing factor – human vs non-human – we’re losing sight of the real meaning of animal rights. Essentially, if you avoid contributing to the various shitty practises which exploit animals, if you think of them while you’re consuming, the mouse story is simply a difference of opinion.

  Everyone has their own limits and their own ideas. If we all sat down in a big cyber-room and said our pieces, I’m sure there’d be lots and lots of conflicts and differences. Its a good thing!
  I hope that made at least some sense.. :)

• Comment by dtrain on January 11th, 2006 at 1:02 pm:

  fuck, if he hadn’t have thrown a LIVE mouse into a fire, his house wouldn’t have burned down. Marc, you must admit the cruelty in that, if not the beautiful irony.

• Comment by tom on January 11th, 2006 at 2:02 pm:

  dtrain, there is still confusion as to wether the mouse was already dead when thrown in the fire. either way he killed him though.

  im thinking of starting a mainstream prime time TV reality show called CSI: Mouse. good idea, eh?

  marc, well, i love living with animals. i have four dogs and three horses. and they are kinder than any human i’ve ever met. they are happy when I get home, they jump on me and lick my face, and when i am sad, they comfort me. people, especially men, cannot compare with the bonds i share with these beings. these people. the dogs names are: tonka,shandy,shylo and lucky. the horses names are amber, pretty girl, and amnesia. my mom frequently rescues abused animals, and our home is better for it. plus, my dogs are really good xmas shoppers!

  the truth is we’re all animals, and we all deserve the same respect. we’re all small parts of these enviroments, this mother planet which gives us so much, yet still we rape more.

  i do feel bad for the guy losing his house, but i feel worse for the mouse losing its life.

  “one touch of nature makes the whole world kin”-shakespeare.

• Comment by marc on January 11th, 2006 at 2:11 pm:

  Hrmm…

  I understand the cruelty in burning an animal alive – of course that’s a bit twisted..but maybe there’s more to it. For example, we’d call a teenager sick or troubled if he shot animals in his backyard for fun, but not really a hunter.

  Now where does that pit the guy that burned the mouse? Older people are a bit quirky with this stuff. My grandmother used to put wooden planks with spikes on them in her backyard garden to ward off cats (no cats were actually hurt)…and my father, who has no liking to any animal whatsoever, would admitantly find it kind of disturbing.

  If we look at it at face value,(if the story was real) the guy threw a mouse in the fire. But I *can* see how he could think nothing of it, just as my grandmother did..and that doesn’t make him a terrible person or worthy of his finances being sacced. It’s just what he’s accustomed to thinking.

  I know, I know, all life is equal because they all suffer the same – this makes perfect sense to me, and I’m trying hard to come to terms with that and the lifestyle I was brought up in. The first time I even seriously encountered animal rights propaganda was Propagandhi’s Less Talk More Rock. But when I’m brought up with situations like these, Man Vs Animal, I think about all the people in my life that would assume I’m a nut for putting them on the same level. I think about how my lifestyle change would be insignificant in the grand scheme of animal slaughters and food processing etc.

  I’m in no way saying that your causes are as futile as I think they would be for me, I’m not too educated on this subject but it’s just an entirely new way of thinking than from what I’m used to.

  Oh, and I understand that it doesn’t always come down to animal vs man. I don’t know what to say, though…I’de be a hypocrite if I said “I wouldn’t harm a fly” since I do eat meat and dairy. I don’t go out of my way to kick cows’ faces in..but I suppose I’m contributing just the same..but then the futility argument comes back up. What do you guys think? Are you vegan because it’s *right* or because you believe it’s making a difference? Both?

  Thanks for being patient w/ me on this issue :D.

• Comment by Josh on January 11th, 2006 at 5:58 pm:

  Poor cow! If it was THAT desperate to get away from there, it probably saw the “killing floor”. If it saw the killing of other cows, with blood spewing everywhere, it would probably have post-traumatic stress disorder by now. Now it has to live with those scars for the rest of its life.

  Thank you, G7 Welcoming Committee! You’ve soured my evening :(

• Comment by Tim on January 11th, 2006 at 9:15 pm:

  This is off topic but does anyone know where i can find the blog entry on myspace being aquired by newscorp? In a sad twist i just noticed anti-flag have a myspace site. Need i say more.

• Comment by Hercules Rockafeller on January 11th, 2006 at 10:12 pm:

  I have long had some nagging questions about veganism that I have yet to find plausible answers to. One of them has to do with the health aspects of a vegan diet. Obviously, a vegan diet inflicts far less cruelty upon the animal kingdom than do traditional diets, but I often hear vegans claiming that their diets are healthier as well. I’m not sure what kind of science supports this claim, but most of the vegans I have met look far from the pictures of perfect health (Todd the Rod excluded). To be frank, most of the them have struck me as looking fragile, sickly and emaciated. And along with their lackluster appearance, it seems that they fall ill more often than non-vegans. I’m not trying to be a prick, I’m just saying what my impressions have been from first-hand experience. An entirely meat-based diet seems to have different yet equally adverse consequences. I have little choice but to agree with the proponents of a balanced diet.

  Am I missing anything here? I’m open to hearing differently.

  I also want to mention that I have a friend with Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Even when taking his medicine, the only food his body can properly digest is animal-based. His doctors have warned him to keep fruit and vegetables to a minimum as they will viciously ravage his bowels. Whenever he ignores their advice, invariably his bowels are viciously ravaged. As a result of his affliction he literally craves salads as a “forbidden fruit.” But make no mistake about it, he would perish on a vegan diet. I sense a misanthropic tenor to this thread, but what if one of your loved ones suffered his fate, would you vegans still insist that they eat a vegan diet?

  Again, I’m not trying to be confrontational, I am just interested in hearing different perspectives.

• Comment by marc on January 12th, 2006 at 3:06 am:

  Not kissing any ass here..but Chris from Propagandhi is visibly muscular. It seems like a weight training regime fits into their diets.

• Comment by Hercules von Rockefeller on January 12th, 2006 at 10:45 am:

  I think Chris likes getting his pictures taken with slow shutter-speeds. His body is definitely devoid of body fat so the mucscle he has is shredded. Maybe he could throw on a thong, rub some body oil on and flex his guns in some pictures to settle the matter once and for all.

  I think the Rod would be uber-manly even if he lived off pond-scum alone. He seems like he’s got a great constitution. And I can’t believe how nice he is.

• Comment by C-Wipe on January 12th, 2006 at 11:53 am:

  i think i’m looking pretty good for 35.

  

• Comment by Hercules von Rockafeller on January 12th, 2006 at 4:14 pm:

  I stand corrected. Chris has the body of a Greek god. But I am left with yet another nagging question: is Chris thinking of auditioning for the Dwarves? Chris and Blag would make for strange yet fascinating bed-fellows, no?

• Comment by tom on January 12th, 2006 at 8:45 pm:

  yo marc. i know people will think your a nut. ever since i started bringing up speciesism, its implications and consequences, people looked at me like i was some kind of monster from an old, bad movie.

  and i dont think any sane vegan proclaims to making a huge difference on the animal slaughter/factory farm industry.personally, i think if any change occurs it is small and within the self, hopefully affect those around a vegan person in a positive way. and it may be unbearably slow, and seemingly hopeless, but change does happen. at least thats my opinion.

  im not a vegan. but i am trying very hard to cut meat out of my life, right now, its hard. i still consume dairy, but hopefully plan to cut that out too. my friends bug me alot, but some are supportive, and im getting better at arguing!

  animal products are in virtualy every product we use or consume. bike tires, concrete. any land that we use, uses another animals’ land. but i think im going vegetarian because i want to reduce the damage that i do. not because i think its the right thing to do, or some righteous act of divinity. fuck that, nothing is pure.

  and also, i wont criticize people who eat meat to survive. who dont have homes, or are being oppresed whether economically or by any other means. there are human cultures on the verge of extinction. there are countless animals gone extinct, or if not yet, soon enough. i think that if its within your means to live healthily while abstaining from meat and dairy, then you shouldnt support these industries.

  but in the end, all oppression is as connected as all life is. it might not be dairy but its definetely cheese!

• Comment by Kyle on January 12th, 2006 at 10:11 pm:

  I started thinking about becoming a vegetarian back in early 2003, and it took me a little over two years to actually do it. I didn’t really think I would do it until April of ‘05 (or so).

  On July 1st, I saw a commercial (starring Tom Cochrane!) about bears being caged and having their bile ‘tapped’… literally. Like the taps on a kitchen sink, bears were having their bile drained for medicines and cosmetics.

  That was it for me.

  Be sure to read labels, though. I was kind of annoyed a few months back when I read the ingredients of Campbell’s vegetable soup. Fucking… Beef fat? I don’t see how that’s necessary.

  I feel like I should probably go vegan. But if there is no further action, other than not eating meat or consuming dairy products, etc, is it really helping anything?

  What kind of action would be appropriate? I don’t want to be a complete asshole.

• Comment by caítlin on January 12th, 2006 at 11:16 pm:

  Ok, so.. replying to this at stupid o’clock while not particularly sober isnt my greatest idea, BUT…
  Marc, when it comes to the generational thing, I definitely see where you’re coming from. However – and I’m sorry if this is a kind of hyperbolic example – lets not forget that just a few decades ago, a lot of people felt the same superiority or at least division from vast sections of human society -minorities and women to name a few. Our ideas evolve and I don’t condemn someone for being born before an idea I’ve embraced was acceptable or even in existence. Having said that, my grandmother is a 96year old middle-class Italian with a penchant for her own strange understanding of fascism, long before the pioneers of, for example, the civil rights movement came along. To this day, she retains – chooses to retain – those pretensions rather than looking to the admittedly more indigestible but, in my mind, undoubtedly more worthwhile philosophies and ideas of recent years. I don’t expect her to become vegan, or left thinking, or even more liberal, but where do we draw the line? I do not – cannot, in my mind – condemn her for not embracing ideas she was never exposed to, but thats part of what makes me glad I was born now and not back then. I don’t necessarily blame her, I’m just happy for myself and my generation. As I mentioned before, I’m not particularly interested in revenge. I haven’t got a war to wage on OAPs for not going vegan or respecting other cultures, but as I said, today the choice is ours and I really don’t see a reason not to make one in everyone’s best interests.

  I also want to point out that for your own personal troubles with AR/veganism (which I imagine most vegans have grappled with), it makes a lot of sense. Its fucking daunting, I know, and I really don’t mean that in a patronising way. I used to think veganism was extremist, or zealotous or something. I’m lucky in that I was veggie for years before (not through some compassionate foresight, but because someone i idolised was) and so the transition for me wasn’t so difficult, but in my own personal experiences, any thought processes worth learning, any ideas worth embracing, come with a LOT of conflict and confusion. Better than just doing it because (insert crappy band name here) said it was cool, anyway.
  As for reasons for going vegan… I have not been vegan long, three or three and half years, and so I’m perhaps not in the best position to answer this, but I sincerely believe that it DOES make a difference. In my own (admittedly poor) mind, it seems like fairly simple maths – according to PETA or some such organisation, the average vegetarian saves ninety-something (I’m too lazy to go check) animals a year simply by changing their diet. A lot of the time people think that the fact meat still exists on our shop shelves is proof that veganism doesnt work, or is ineffective, or worse still, solely a masturbatory indulgence for the people who choose to embrace it [much like the persistance of capitalism, etc is thrown in the face of activists] This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I can see why it seems futile, certainly, but that decrease in consumption tells me it isnt.
  Again, to go to a family exmaple, my brothers both eat a lot of meat, and often joke that they make up for my veganism by eating twice as much meat as a normal person… there is no reason to think they would be any different if I ate meat too, so instead of 100-odd animals a year on top of their (rather excessive) consumption, by not eating meat I’m not directly changing their diets but reducing the demand for meat or at least the consumption of it within my own lifestyle.

  Oh dear, I don’t think I expressed that very well at all. Long story short, I do it because I can’t not do it, knowing the implications; because there’s no reason why I shouldn’t, and because I truly believe its worthwhile, for humans, non-humans and the planet. All sorts of shit continues to happen, but surely thats an argument for more activism rather than less?

  She’s got the whoooole world in her hands..

  Going onto the health aspect of veganism, while I am admittedly no Hercules (unless he was five foot too), I am both vegan and – dare I say it? DARE I?! – robustly healthy. I get sick maybe three times a year when I become lazy and eat shitty food, which is in fact much less than my dairy consuming days and DEFINITELY my meat-consuming days, although admittedly they could both be for a number of reasons. There are many, many examples of both perfectly normal, healthy vegans (I aint no beanpole!) and in fact some rather exceptional examples too. I wouldn’t consider the human benefits of veganism convincing enough to actually make that transition were it not for the animal and environmental implications, but a cholesterol free diet with (I think) the lowest rate of obesity ispretty convincing in my head. I can only speak from personal experience, but I’m confident that I’m better nourished than most.

  Having said that, it definitely comes down to what you eat. Fast food vegans will, I imagine, be either less healthy than or equally unhealthy as fast food omnivores. A balanced diet is always going to be important. All I can say is that not every vegan is a representative of a vegan diet.. (just as it wouldn’t be fair to point you to one of the vegan athletes and say “go vegan and you’ll look like that!”)

  As for your friend with IBS, there is no way in hell I am going to condemn or attack someone else for their choices, especially with such mitigating circumstances. I have no clue what on earth I would do in such a situation (other than pout a lot, I fucking love red onion) and when you consider veganism as part of a compassionate lifestyle, the very idea of judging your unfortunate friend becomes just plain absurd. To quote Tom – “i think that if its within your means to live healthily while abstaining from meat and dairy, then you shouldnt support these industries.”

  … and as for shutter speeds, alas, they don’t create muscles where there are none [believe me, i've tried!], or I would set my camera and become the icon to assuage all your fears. With Chris and Todd, I think its fair to say they’re both rather dashing (yes, I did just say “rather dashing”) and toned looking people, although I can’t comment on their health. They don’t “look” sickly to me though. Lets not be favouritist now!

  And Kyle, I think there will be actions as far as you’re willing to go. Everyone has their own limitations (if they didn’t its fairly safe to say we’d all be dead), but you can do anything from just cutting out animal products, to volunteering to work with animals or aid organisations, to some of the more radical ALF-style stuff. Much like the anti-capitalist movement, although its far harder to exist outside of capitalism than outside of the animal industries!
  … and you should definitely read labels. Why, oh why, do they put milk in salt and vinegar crisps?!

• Comment by marc on January 13th, 2006 at 1:21 am:

  8 paragraphs long and not a one on the Ballsack Nylons. C’mon Caitlin. You know they were staring you in the face.

  :D

  For the vegans out there: Do you find it difficult to shop for food…eat in restaurants..etc? Do you eat supplemental protein – like whey..or get all your protein from legumes and veggies and such. What’s a typical day like?

  Thanks. :P

• Comment by ben on January 13th, 2006 at 1:57 am:

  It depends where i am at. Whe i lived in vancouver, it was a vegetarian paradise, if you wanted to eat out. 4 Chinese vegetarian/vegan restaurants in greater van alone, not mentioning the western-style nes. And almost every place has a vegetarian/vegan menu item. And if not, it can be easily arranged.

  I live in Japn now, and it is WAY different. Even though the Japanese have been eating beef for a little over a hundered years and did not eat a huge amount of fish historically, it is nuts here. Eating out is almost impossible, because almost all soup stocks and sauces are made with fish.

  Having said that, if you know how to prepare japanese food, it is the best place in the world to be vegetarian. There is soooooo many soy-based dishes, a huge variety of seasonal vegetables, and an amazing vegetarian culinary tradition passed down from the Buddhist monks. There is little need to try to mimic meat like in the west, because therer is an emphasis on retaining the natural flavors of the food, in their natural state.

  My day is

  breakfast- 1 glass OJ, 1 cup soymilk, a banana, and a small piece of brown sugar braed.

  lunch- I work at a Jr high school, and can`t eat the regular lunches, so i make my own in bulk on the weekends. usually rice, stewed veggies, a tofu side, and some kind of small slad.

  dinner- any number of things, from instant noodles to japanese-style curry to a stir-fry.

  As for nutritional value, i`ll admit i am not an expert. I don`t eat any supplaments. I had some bloodwork done in the summer, and i was apparently good for everything, except i had high cholesterol, of all things. Aparently my body still produces to much, and it may have something to do with my love of deep-fried foods.

  If you are interested vegetarianism at all, and the arguement for it, get Robbins` “Diet for a New America”. Super well-written, and can answer any question you have about veganism/vegetarianism. And G7 happens to stock it, last time i checked. Or borrow it from the library.

  by the way, nice man-hammock, Chris.

• Comment by ben on January 13th, 2006 at 2:01 am:

  I just checked, and G7 doesn`t have the book. It is hardly a rarity though, and shouldn`t be hard to find.

• Comment by AlsoDevilsFan on January 13th, 2006 at 10:00 am:

  YES!!!…Go mouse. That is great…the mouse getting back at that cruel fuck.

  Devils are on a streak now…….A WINNING ONE!!!!!!

• Comment by caítlin on January 13th, 2006 at 10:12 am:

  Eight paragraphs, christ thats bad! Even for long-winded old me.. very poetic expression, by the way. It just occurs to me that I wrote that on a friend’s computer… if they see that picture i think they’ll be slightly worried.

  The restaurant question is a good one.. It definitely depends on where youre at, definitely. There are no vegetarian or vegan restaurants in Belfast, or even Northern Ireland that I know of, but I’ve never been forced to eat something that contradicted my veganism. Chinese, indian and mexican restaurants all have veg options, I’m not really sure what else there is out there (can you say “provincial”?) but any restaurant worth its salt either has an option or will make something up for you.
  The only bad experience I’ve had was in a very, very posh restaurant in London, where they literally gave me two mushrooms, a lump of spinach and some runner beans. Oops.
  Veg restaurants are fucking fab though, they have a few in Dublin that are just incredible. Even if you’re not veggie, definitely check them out!
  As for shopping for food… I’ve never really struggled. About once every month or so I’ll go down to the health food store and get lots of nuts and some tofu and nut burgers etc, the stuff than can be tricky-ish to find. The rest of the time, if I wanted to I could do my shopping in a supermarket!
  I don’t take supplements either, because I’ve never felt the need to. Most of my vegan-designed things, like margerine and soya milk, have added Omega and B vitamins, the kinda stuff you need to keep your eye on. I probably should take some, just to be safe (I imagine everyone should) but I just don’t bother at the moment. My bad!
  Typical day… hmm. Well, post-Christmas I’m a lazy ass, but here goes;
  - Breakfast if I want it is either toast with marmite or peanut butter or some such thing, or vegan cereal [some have milk] with soya milk. There are endless possibilities though, i’m just boring.
  - Lunch – salad sandwhich, yesterdays left overs, hummous and guacamole with veggies, beans on toast, soup, etc.
  - Dinner – pasta, rice/veggies/lentils or tofu, potatoes/veg/veggie burger or something, fajitas, quinoa and nut roast, big soup, shepards pie, etc etc.. it can be as fancy or as simple as you like really. If you’re still curious, I have a bunch of recipes on my computer of the kinda stuff I eat every day. If you want me to email them to you, contact queeryouthni [at] yahoo [dot] com [it doesnt matter if that address gets spammed]. :)

• Comment by LJ on January 13th, 2006 at 10:29 am:

  Recently channel 4 and More4 (UK) have been hosting a range of tv shows on animal experimentation. Many of you i’m sure are against animal testing. Out of sheer ignorance, i was wondering if anyone knew whether tissue growth in labs was an alternative which could be used to rule out animal testing altogether. If not, is there a complete alternative to animal testing? or an alternative which is better than animal testing since it has been heavily critised as the animals used are often not genetically similar to humans.

  Its interesting to see how some animal rights groups do not necissarily adopt a pacefist approach to their activism, and that many use violence, car bombings and threats as the only way of making a change. Anyone have anyviews on that? I think the media portraying all animal rights activists in this way which is part of the problem, as they become condemed as violent, senseless lunatics.

• Comment by marc on January 13th, 2006 at 2:30 pm:

  I won’t bother you to spend the time to send recipes. I was just curious. I go to the fourth largest university in the USA, and even with the size and demand, the vegan options in school are pathetic. Some kids settle for eating apples and salad for lunch everyday. Given that the dining halls are impressive, the options for alternative eating are very shitty.

  I guess a large portion of vegan/vegetarian-wannabes would be swayed if change started from the top-down…but where’s the incentive to?

• Comment by Yaniv on January 13th, 2006 at 2:36 pm:

  ” Its interesting to see how some animal rights groups do not necissarily adopt a pacefist approach to their activism, and that many use violence, car bombings and threats as the only way of making a change.”

  Well, some of these so-called alternatives used by “animal rights groups” are seldom made – at least I can’t recall hearing of any “threats” recently.

  But to comment on your question, some of those actions listed embody the principles of direct action. Contrary to mainstream belief, the ALF (Animal Liberation Front) does not propagate nor advance terrorism when they infiltrate any vivisection facilities and liberate beings from utmost suffering. The destruction of tools, used to inflict irreversible pain to animals, is not a terrorist tactic because no physical damage is ever done to actual human beings, but rather a means to stop effectively the oppression of other living-beings. That the decimation of property could be defined as terrorism, is more “senseless” than to fail to bring some form of curtailment to blithe injustices like animal-experimentation.

  True, to stage some demonstration outside a KFC, even with a considerable amount of people, will exert some pressure to those who profit from the butchery and fragmentation of animals. But only minimally. The tangible liberation of animals, by contrast, does end the plight they’re enduring, and unlike some other methods, it reinforces the idea that animals have rights as well.

  For a better analysis of some of the recurrent infectivity some pacifist methods can bring, get yourself a copy of Churchill’s “pacifism as pathology” CD. It’s excellent. While doing so, help G7 by buying the “spoken word” cds they have in stock.

• Comment by dtrain on January 13th, 2006 at 5:08 pm:

  This goes way back, but I guess the way I look at it is this; people do fucked up things. You can let them get away with it as they continue aging, or you can at least call them on their bullshit. I have tons of family and friends who have the most bizarre pre-conceptions regarding treatment of sentient beings. But just because my grandpa enjoys eating Veal, doesn’t mean I’ll just kick back and go he’s old. Unfortunately, it seems like this is what happens when people refuse to keep thinking and mentally advancing with progressive environmental and social movements. It’s like our Moms’ claiming not to be feminist. It’s insane! Likewise, if some old fart still doesn’t think that animals can feel pain, I’m going to school him. I’m sure I’ll be schooled one day by some young punk who knows something I don’t, but I think that’s our responsibility as a species. This is lame and I can’t believe I’m going to quote Prop on the G7 blog, but there was alot more to less talk more rock than animal rights propaganda like, “I’ll call your shit, please call me on mine”.

  Also, I’ve had numerous discussions with dieticians that all seem to concur that going vegan is a healthy choice. Yes, it’s wise to have a supplement vitamin, get your protein and your B12, but these things all come naturally after you choose a vegan diet. Check out the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine’s website, pcrm.org for starters. On that note, do vegans look frair? Or perhaps it’s the other 95% of the western population that are just packing on needless pounds in a non-sustainable mannor. It’s also not that hard (at least in most metropolean cities) to find vegan food. You learn where to look, and vegan meals are often way more tasty than traditional western dishes, adding to the perks.

  Lastly, no one convinced me to go vegan. It was a rational decision I made by myself once I knew the facts. I’m not a judge. I’m not going to condemn people for not choosing a cruelty-free lifestyle if they can’t help it. I’m not going to fly up to Old Crow, Yukon, and bitch to the Native population about how it’s mean to sustain themselves on Caribou. But if you know that what we’re doing to ourselves, other beings and the planet is fucked up and you have the means to do something about it (socio-economic conditions, no fucked up dietary restrictions etc), you have two choices the way I see it;
  1- Remain in a state of self denial, turn a blind eye to abuse and do nothing, passing this attitude along.
  2-Do what you can, take the responsibility (that the majority of the population just somehow can’t) to keep/make the planet a little better, cutting down on the overwhelming (needless!) cruelty and oppression, and pass this attitude along.

  One last thing, I can’t find the scientific resource, but I just read somewhere the other day that a plant based diet does more for the environment than it does if you stop driving altogether.

• Comment by dtrain on January 13th, 2006 at 5:18 pm:

  Marc, one very last thing I promise.
  When I began going to the University of Alberta, there was fuck all for vegan food on campus. I packed a lunch everyday and felt sorry for any veg(ans) living in res, because their meal plan is fucked up (due to a contract with a lousy, lousy food prep company that will remain, ah fuck it, Aramark sucks right across the board). If you want that shit to change in your school, it’s not easy, with beaurocracy and many people being adverse to it for no reason at all. But in my second year we elected a lefty for SU president and then we had something. (we actually ran a whole slate, I was the helping out the VP student life who unfortunatly lost). Anyways, after this we campained to clean up the Student Union building and get some healthy food served up in that hizouse. Now, 4 years later, there remains a nice (albiet small, but still better than fries!) pocket of food for those in the veg corner. :)

• Comment by blowhard on January 14th, 2006 at 1:40 am:

  “For the vegans out there: Do you find it difficult to shop for food…eat in restaurants..etc? Do you eat supplemental protein – like whey..or get all your protein from legumes and veggies and such. What’s a typical day like?”

  marc –No, actually it’s quite easy. And yes…all of us vegans eat tons of whey for protein:

  whey
  n.
  The watery part of milk that separates from the curds, as in the process of making cheese.

  …you moron.

• Comment by D-Rock on January 14th, 2006 at 9:57 am:

  blowhard indeed … I don’t think someone’s a moron for asking a question. Asshole.

• Comment by mikea on January 14th, 2006 at 1:41 pm:

  i wanted to add something to the cruelty/compassion/specism debate, from the not-very-compassionate kid i was who has eventually become the (healthy) vegan i am ’s point of view: i believe, and it was the case for yours truly, that some people would choose a veggie/vegan diet with compassion towards non-human animals as argument number…let’s say ‘five’, on the “why do it list”.

  To make it clear, compassion towards animals can not-necessarily be of top-importance to some people, sad but true, and i’m taking advantage of this debate to express my belief that basing our arguments with this as the main focus would be a tactical mistake in our struggle to make this world a ‘better place’ for every living creature.

  What i am trying to say is not that compassion
  is of no importance: it is a remarkable feeling but that most people in today’s western societies usually feel ‘Ã la carte’: and first come themselves. (then possibly towards some other humans and possibly as well towards some non-human animals, and rather rarely towards all human/non-hunman animals…i don’t even mention the curious distinction made between a stupid cat, labeled ‘lovely pet’, and an adult pig, as intelligent as a 2/3 year old child, labeled ‘bacon’)

  Good ol’ selfishness.

  My point is that we should use people’s selfishness to its best advantage, by making people face the threats that the meat/dairy industry are to the/our/theirs/their children’s environment and health – issues that i believe most people reading now know perfectly.

  To use a metaphore, we should adress to people’s (selfish) brains as well as to their (often not-so-compassionate)hearts.

  But there’s more at stake in our plates, food production in western soceties being a prototype of modern capitalism (which, at the same time relies on and is the cause for most of the bullshit in our lives); we’ve turned one of people’s most basic need into a profit-at-any-cost industry in the hands of corporations generously helped in their exploitation of our needs, earth, fellow human-beings, continuing mindlessness, fears, and of our dearest friends the animals by our elected governments!…….you guys know all about it..

  Any non-veg’ truly concerned about the environment, by the highly problematic futur of water, by the issues of economic efficiency, of northern exploitation of the south’s ressources, by the persistance of hunger on this planet and so on,(the list could be way longer) has to question his diet.

  While veganism/vegetarianism equals actual/de facto compassion towards animals (the weaker the demand for meat and dairy will be, the fewer animals will suffer), there are lots of other concerns that can bring one to it.

  I’ve just spent 3 hours writing this first ever blog entry (english not being my mother tongue) I am tired, hungry, and the old pee smell coming from my underwear tells me i should really have a shower now. Hopefully this was my last blog entry.

• Comment by drew on January 14th, 2006 at 5:48 pm:

  making the transition to a vegan diet is definitly something you want to go into being very informed about. everything the human body needs exists in the plant kingdom. some people are like oh this will be easy, soy ice cream, vegan fries from mc donalds (i dont know if they really are or not) and they just live on that. i mean, you can be a healthy or unhealthy vegan. its really up to you . another book of recommendation not specifically on the vegetarian diet but just on health in general (although the book does strongly support abstaining from meat and dairy) you may want to check out “Prescription for Dietary Wellness” by Phyllis A. Balch. its fucking AMAZING.

  as for eating out and shopping, that can be relative to where you live. most towns/cities these days have health food stores and restaruants that have vegan/veg things. also a lot of the big chain supermarkets have health food sections, so when travelling its possible to maintain veganism for sure. travelling vegan can be difficult. but never impossible!

• Comment by jeremy on January 14th, 2006 at 8:21 pm:

  But it’s not like most US diets that include animal products are all that balanced. I culd see wanting to be really informed and well-read if you were going to, say, brave eating a McDonald’s hamburger, but just going vegan…what’s the worst that can happen?

• Comment by soyuz on January 14th, 2006 at 9:47 pm:

  escaped cow story got some local news coverage the other day, however it was more for the sake of amusement. mainstream news, can it ever be more than infotainment? both of them great stories, and I liked the comment, “That’s not a dumb animal.”

  P.S. I’m either going to get those undies, or use it to hypnotize people and make them conform to my ideology, muhahaha.

• Comment by tomass on January 16th, 2006 at 12:32 pm:

  marc- not all vegans are food nazis! i guess some people “care” so much about animal rights that they go around belittling humans for something so outrageous as asking a meaningful and thought out question. you should accept caitlin’s recipes though, because no matter what your diet, they’re fucking delicious!

  blowhard- yes, well, have you always known what whey is? yes? well,you know, we’re not all the budding progidies that you seem to be. your so smart. was just wondering how you think trashing someone for asking a question is beneficial to the animals’ cause?

  *hitting you on the head with my picture dictionary*

• Comment by ben on January 17th, 2006 at 12:45 am:

  no violence please! Humans are animals too!

• Comment by ridebikesmore! on January 17th, 2006 at 8:09 pm:

  caitlin! here’s three cheers for your mention of quinoa!!! i love that stuff. its so easy to make. and so nutritious. complete protein! is it very common in ireland?

  even with all the non-animal sources of protein I think vegans/vegetarians will always be asked where they get it from. i think we’ve all come to expect getting that question as soon as our diet is mentioned.

• Comment by falcore on January 19th, 2006 at 9:59 pm:

  I think Hemp is a great alternitive to everything even grammer and spelling by the way does anybody else hate being referred to a vegan or a veggie. to me its like somebody asking you if you if you are growing a beard as if you are doing something but from my point of view you are not doing anything im not shaving so the hair on my face grows just like im not eating dairy or meat or eggs so im not doing something im acctually doing less.
  somebody who plays sports is a called a jock or some one who paints is called a artist cuz they are doing something.

• Comment by Kyle on January 19th, 2006 at 11:30 pm:

  Pipe down, beardo. (Just kidding!)

  I don’t like calling myself anything. I usually say, “I don’t eat meat.”

• Comment by Jorge on January 20th, 2006 at 6:03 am:

  just a quick comment on the animal testing issue.. i was talking to an anti-testing group on the subject and found it interesting that in a LOT of cases of animal testing – even on species close to humans, like apes – the results can be very different due to slight differences in biological make-up. penicillin was almost not discovered as it did not succeed when tested on animals – it was only found to work when, years later, it was used as a last desperate resort on a dying child. i did feel upset that they were fighting the issue from this perspective rather than out of compassion for the animals but was surprised to find out that animal testing is not only cruel but also redundant and holding back advances in medical science..

• Comment by tom on January 20th, 2006 at 2:21 pm:

  for a… splendid example of a healthy, good looking herbivorian human, i need only say one word: GMAC.

  http://www.gregmacpherson.com

• Comment by ksup22 on February 6th, 2006 at 9:45 am:

  hey Caitlin I am going to email you to share soem recipes, I am very interested in your Shephards Pie. I’m lucky where I got to Uni, we have thes elocal Hari Krishna’s that set up an all you can eat vegetraian/ Vegan buffet. The religion is not for me but wow they make some amazing food.

Dialogue has ended on this post.

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